"Do Kickstarters do more help or harm?" Topic

Something I have been wondering for a while. Do kickstarters do more help for new product or more harm and bad PR?

It seems like almost every kickstarter I am on, there is a lot of "bad blood".

Notable exceptions to this are Reaper and Impact in my own personal experiences.

delays
product changes making it not like it was promised
bad first draft rules
delays
lack of communication
additional shipping prices
unfinished and discontinued line after kickstarter ended
no updates
company blaming other companies or coworkers for their failures
backers dumping the game as soon as they get it because of the above
backers bad mouthing the game because of the above
backer backing out of the game because no one else they knew got into it.

etc…

Is this bad PR just business as usual, or is it causing more damage than expected to new companies and scaring away new customers than if they just released the product on their own schedule?

I have had no significant problems with KS beyond Russian bureaucracy delaying a book on Soviet WW2 Women pilots.

Still waiting for a rulebook that is over 2+ years from the end of a kickstarter.

I think KS is a good example of "Just because you have a good ides, doesn't mean you should be the one to make it."

There are a number of KS projects I've seen where I could tell just by looking at the models if the people running it have any experience in manufacturing and if there will be issues.

So far I've been right every time.

In most cases it's not really a matter of "fault" but one of people having a great idea, but not really understanding of just how hard it can be to make a game or miniatures.

Seen more than one KS go years past delivery target. There are companies I will not back another KS from because of this.

There are also companies that have performed spectacularly and exceeded my every expectation. Some of these have led to me backing more KS projects from these companies and buying into their other product lines.

I think those who go into a KS looking for just a chance to get stuff at a deep discount often get what they deserve.

Interestingly it is not always the new companies that seem to have trouble making good on their promises. I think KS encourages companies to get carried away with stretch goals at the expense of actually producing the core project.
Too many companies seem to be using KS as an advance order system for products they plan to release anyway, not for a trial balloon and fundraiser for projects that otherwise wouldn't be produced.

I have never participated in one, so have no clue.
It's not that I don't trust them, it's just that I can't afford to put money on things I know will not be on my porch on Wednesday.

I have done four. one delivered a year late. One was cancelled. One I am still waiting on the miniatures 2 years later. And the last looks like the best one yet as I really think I will have the figures delivered on time.

I've found that with the exception of the big companies who just use Kickstarter as a preorder service, the companies that take a realistic approach to time, cost and rewards aren't embraced nearly as well as the folks who promise the moon, the sun and stars and then fail to deliver because reality hits them in the face. It seems that most kickstarter backers seem to want to believe and thus fall prey to hucksters as a result.

I think those who go into a KS looking for just a chance to get stuff at a deep discount often get what they deserve.

I always do my research and for the record I expect a deep discount, because I have given them my money way in advance. I get what I deserve which is what I've paid for and I've always gotten it.

I have done twenty. One is still going (Bones III), two others will pay out soon, one hopefully in six months.

One is two years late, though for respectable reasons. I don't harbor any ill will against the guy.

Backers are investors. As long as they don't run off with the money, or give me something not up to the quality level specifically promised, I don't complain.

I have heard of relatively few of the hundreds of the KS projects I have looked into that were TRULY problematic.

Having said THAT, I have also seen quite a few that looked to have unrealistic goals, or were just noticeably muddle-headed notions. Assuming they funded (most do not), it's caveat emptor, same as everywhere else.

I've only did one and that was because the company was already established (MBA) and had a positve repitation. I bought into their new big castle range about two years ago. I had nothing but excellent updates and a early delivery of what I bought into with all the freebees.

I've seen a lot of kickstarter deals out there and would caution anyone to be smart and research the company before dumping a lot of hard earn money.

P.

for the most part I have had good luck but there are lots of excuses that are made for delays, most I can deal with. A few outright thieves like Team frog studios that have not completed 2 kickstarters that were due in Dec 2012 and Feb 2013. He will not give updates or answer messages either, that is frustrating and hurts the hobby. I have done 62 kickstarters 12 are outstanding(some of those are new) 6 have been partially filled(a few are movies that have not finished screening their movies yet then they will send the DVD) some of them like Maki games were missing parts and have not shipped them to me yet. Camp Grizzly has sent out most of it but have a second wave of figures that are do soon (but that was stated) I just can't mark them as completed yet. All in all I have enjoyed the kickstater that I have done. I have also done 11 indiegogo campaigns and all 11 have been filled most on time.

I have done five.

1 (Bombshell) delivered right on target
2 were 1-2 years late
1 (Total Extinction) is more than a year late and looks like a rip off- the guy is now a mayor in some Spanish city and has not responded in months
1 has not yet reached its delivery date

So….. not too impressed

Apparently I am mis-communicating my question. I am not asking if or when you would back a kickstarter.

I am asking after the kickstarter is done, and the deliverables have been delivered. Was their too much damage done in "the process"?

Are people playing the games once its been delivered or have they been too soured by the experience?

Are people who were interested but did not back a kickstarter scared away by the soured backers?

Etc…

Did one from a company that was established got the stuff rather late IMO considering they actually had all the stuff ready to go, it was a smallish KS and in the end I feel I ended pay the company too much for too little, perhaps my expectations were higher than what they actually were saying (the goblins were way smaller than I thought because there was no comparison to other 28 mm specimens) so think A. they are just a way for some companys to get out of financial difficulty and B a pre order system without strong enough guarantees.
Cheers all

So far I'd say that I was lucky with my KS…or I'm making right choices.
2 Reapers, 1 Bombshell, 2 Coolminiornot (well first is on time,but I haven't got it yet, 2d just funded).
One of the Reapers was late, but I have no problem with it – nobody could have expected success of this scale.
1st of CMON has expensive shipment, but providing the exchange rate we're having now, I'm still saving a lot.
in one word – positive.
However, Avatars of War Indiegogo campaign is a different story….

To answer the original question: It depends on the KS. In the few I've backed, the company has generated good PR (products shipped on time, within quality expectations, and in one instance with bonus product (his expected prices went down)). For new companies that have a great idea but don't understand just how hard business can be, yeah, they suffer. Not only do they alienate their backers, but the bad press they get will cut into future sales.

I think KS is a good example of "Just because you have a good ides, doesn't mean you should be the one to make it."

And to turn that around, just because someone has a good idea, doesn't mean you need to back it.

There's too many campaigns that almost look too good to be true at first glance, and upon further review, they're even worse than could possibly be imagined. Yet, people still pledge in droves and complain when 2+ years later, they have a pdf copy of the beta rules and a souvenier pin that wasn't even included in the initial campaign.

On another board, there's an uproar over a "cheater" d20 kickstarter, with the numbers 18-20. While 99% are complaining about the "sanctity of game," I'm more aghast at people paying $10 USD for a single normal sized twenty-sided die (shipping included). People (myself included) have a propensity of being stupid at times.

And as much as people love Reaper, I've yet to see anyone acknowledge their breakdown of their Bones II campaign. The numbers are a little skewed, but after $3.37 USD million in pledges, they turned a tidy profit of $54,000 USD (and I'm assuming sufficient leftover inventory). That's a single postal increase away from pure pandemonium and a net loss on the project. If Reaper cuts it that close, how do you suppose three inexperienced guys in a studio apartment in downtown Omaha are going to run theirs?

Well, Reaper got inventory (machines& molds), and moved production to US and got experience how to deal with soft plastic stuff. I guess it is not too bad in addition to 54K, and for 2d and 3d Bones they no longer need to pay for nmost of the inventory..

If you want "bad blood", look no further than the Palladium Books Robotech KS. They didn't have a stellar rep before the KS, and handling the KS properly likely would have given them a huge boost. But the horrible mismanagement of the project on all levels has sunk their rep into the tank, except for a handful who seem to think Palladium can do no wrong. Its amazing to comprehend but Palladium almost totally covered Haywire's list of delays.

I was told recently by a manufacturer I respect greatly that (from his perspective) the only thing worse than a Kickstarter that fails is one that succeeds.

Then – to keep on the staff you had to employ on short order to fulfill the previous kickstarter – you have to invent another kickstarter and the whole cyclic process begins again…

I'm also aware that not all crowdfunding schemes are equal and some (Indigogo) and others (say Kickstarter) have different rules regarding protection for customers.

I'm not a fan of the system. I have never participated in one.

John T

Robotech is one of the kickstarters I was thinking of.

Relic Knights I am seeing only a couple people playing.

Dust and the Battlefield breakup seems to be causing people to jump ship from the games and resellers purging stock.

Sedition Wars, I never got on, but I bought the box set after and it seems dead.

Dont hear much about Rivet Wars after it got released

I have only seen a couple people playing All Quiet on the Martian Front

Yes, I am playing all my Kickstarter games.

@OP

This is a really good question

I have got into the hobby about 2 years ago after a long break and things are different

There are a lot of sub-divisions in the hobby so I don't think it is possible to generalize about a specific effect.

The Internet has enabled many small businesses to advertise and run a store front very cheaply – I see tons of 1/2 person miniature operations and presumably there is the same with games. Kickstarter allows these small operations to do new things without having the cash up front to execute the project. It is also relatively cheap marketing to understand demand for a product before investing. So in that sense, I see kickstarter as a benefit in that it allows small businesses to do more or even start up in the first place.

Clearly there are bad kickstarters, but given the extent to which the hobby is split into small groups I don't know how to quantify the impact of bad kickstarters.

I have backed two kickstarters that didn't fund. In one case, the work so far was sold to a more established manufacturer and they plan to release as part of their range. In the other case, they sold the work to friends who developed it further, figured out a way to expand the range and about 18 months later ran a kickstarter that did fund. This would seem to me to be kickstarter at its best helping the hobby grow. Without the kickstarter feedback, the two originals would have gone bankrupt and perhaps the work would never have been finished

Of course, I may change my tune if I back a kickstarter where the money gets spent on fast cars and women instead of wargames. Now that I think about it, perhaps I need to revisit how I budget my money :)

Thanks

John

I am a pretty good candidate to run a kick starter. I have a small 1/2 person shop and some pretty unique methods to make stuff.

I have not yet done one. Mostly because I think there are simply too many of them and maybe the best way to differentiate my little company is to be the guy who is risking his own money?

I have some limited contacts within the industry, so this is not an overall insight; But from what I have seen, once you get hooked on the kick starter cycle you can not get off of it.

It becomes a part of your business model. Some companies have kicked over and over again and yet can still not keep things running. So they kick again. But once you are 2-8 kick starters behind in delivery it gets harder and harder to convince people that you can be trusted this time.

Reminds me of my relatives who kept trying to borrow their way out of debt. It can be difficult to pull off.

So far I have decided to not get hooked, although a huge influx of cash might be handy once in a while.

To answer your question, it helps in the short term- but long term I think it is not a good business model for sustainable cash flow.

And I think it hurts the industry overall, by flooding the market with vaporware type products that eat up the consumer's disposable hobby income. Money that could have gone to the local game shop for something that he has setting on the shelf.

Just my opinion, with no data or facts to really back it up. And to keep things in perspective, I have been predicting the collapse of GW due to high prices for around 2 decades.

I was never in doubt but completely wrong.

> I am asking after the kickstarter is done, and the deliverables have been delivered. Was their too much damage done in "the process"?

What do you mean by "damage"? If it means "would I back another project of theirs" the post-funding behavior of a company will influence my decision to back their next project. If it means "would I buy their game retail", it's usually irrelevant, since I buy games at retail at a deep discount on sale from an OLGS.

> Are people playing the games once its been delivered or have they been too soured by the experience?

The experience hasn't affected my interest in playing the game, but I think I know what you mean. I read on Dakka how many backers of Robotech don't want to play the game, because of how badly Palladium Games has managed the project. I haven't had such a negative experience, even with a $25 USD project that I doubt will deliver.

> Are people who were interested but did not back a kickstarter scared away by the soured backers?

What do you mean by "scared away"? Again, comments by backers of a creator are important to my decision to back a creator's next project. Frex, comments on the Reaper forums encouraged me to back Dark Sword Miniatures and Stonemaier (?), and I will back Oathsworn's next KS project.

> Apparently I am mis-communicating my question.

Yeah.. you still are.

> Do kickstarters do more help for new product or more harm and bad PR?

Huh? Why should a KS run by Reaper or CMON mean anything in my decision to back CuCu dice? I hope backers realize that one KS project is not like another, but I'm not surprised that such people still exist!

> It seems like almost every kickstarter I am on, there is a lot of "bad blood".

Do better research when you look at a KS, then?

> Is this bad PR just business as usual, or is it causing more damage than expected to new companies and scaring away new customers than if they just released the product on their own schedule?

So are you saying "Does KS scare away potential backers from projects on KS?" I'd say yes, and many BoardGameGeek members have said they will not back KS projects for the reasons you stated.

But I think if you do your research on companies participating on KS, particularly "First Created" ones, you'll find some good prices out there by creators who should deliver with few delays. As you said, Reaper and Impact are good companies, and I'd back them because of their good track records in delivering KickStarted projects. I think *now* enough companies are regularly using KS that you can have a good customer experience, or at least a product that will be delivered on time, or at least with a reasonable delay.

ced1106

With most of the Kickstarters I have seen or been in that have successfully backed and finally gotten product (after delays and all the reasons I mention above) the games themselves seemed to have stalled or died.

Did the long process of the kickstarter cause the backers to lose interest?

Does the backers complaining about the games during the creation process scare new buyers away once the product is in stores?

I did do my research and got most of my starters. But there were delays. I didn't mind because it seemed business as usual. But the delays and miscommunication really ed off other backers.

Robotech is probably the best example of what I am talking about.

All Quiet on the Martian front seems to be another (I didn't back it).

Sedition Wars (I didn't back that one either) sitting dead on the shelves.

Product is in the stores and NOT MOVING.

Hmm. I think that KS has an inherent problem of not building the base necessary to sustain a "lifestyle" game, like miniature skirmish games or CCG's. However, I don't play miniature skirmish games, so you'd know better than I would. I'd like to know if any such which were successful, such as, I guess, Mantic's Dreadball and Kings of War, have much of a following.

I *am* familiar with boardgames, and rarely see a successfully KS'ed boardgames at a public event, such as Meetup. Most of the popular games are retail: Rio Grande Games, Fantasy Flight Games, Steve Jackson Games, etc. I actually see very few CMON games (not even Zombicide) at public events, although many BoardGameGeek posters will mention how often they play it with their gaming groups. OTOH, Successful boardgames (eg. Zombicide, Cthulhu Wars) sold out at the FLGS, and Reaper Bones is in stock.

What have you seen at the FLGS or public events?

ced1106, I think building the base is part of it. During the campaign for something everyone gets whipped into a frenzy of spending to get more stuff. Then it ends and there's nothing, for a year or more in some cases. Sure some people try to keep the interest up, create blogs and webpages even. But by the time the game or minis are in hand, many have moved on to something else.

Some companies are learning, DreamPod9 must be watching the Robotech KS closely because everything PB is doing wrong, DP9 is doing right, frequent updates, 3d renders of everything, listening to feedback and making adjustments, telling backers when there are problems, etc.

Doing research on the company is very good advice, and there were some people during the Robotech campaign saying "buyer beware" but it appeared to most that Ninja Division (who had a decent track record) was doing the heavy lifting and PB just allowing use of their license. A year later we find out that not only were ND and PB not on the same page, they weren't even reading the same book!

The original purpose of kickstarter(Helping new businesses start) doesnt work well in the mini industry. Its way more complicated than people think. Only the smartest and biggest companies get by as well as the guy who will kill himself to get it out.

Even if you get it out three years later you still have a bad rep.

Some problems turn up no one expected, mail probably being the worst.

My personal experiences that stand out; Matt Solarz stiffing everyone, Mick Leach still saying hes getting it out three years later-I dont care I'm not interested anymore. Another disappointment was a trusted seller did a KS and sold the crummiest figs I ever saw.

I'm sticking to Reaper, CMON and Dwarven Forge, maybe take a risk here and there. But newbies are too risky.