"The Confederate Battle Flag: America's most embattled emblem" Topic

Caught a little of this last week on C-Span's Book TV and during the week searched and found the program. The program is with John Coski recorded in Oct 2005. Just watched it (around 35min with Q&A to 52min). Found it very interesting. Has a little history of how the flags became and were changed. Hope you take the opportunity about this very hot topic.
link

A very good find, thanks for sharing. I learned several things I didn't know.

I think one of the more shocking was that the flag was flown from the top of the Massachusetts state house in 1951.

If a 'battle flag' is the colors which a unit carried
into battle and which acted as a rally point, among
other things, then there are as many different 'battle
flags' for the Confederacy as there were states in the
Confederacy – or almost.

The notorious flag is what was used by certain regiments in the Army if Northern Virginia.

Only idiots and fools call it "the Confederate flag".

Ignorant commentators call it "The Stars and Bars" which it obviously isn't.

Someone sent me the link to this lecture a few weeks ago. Coski is a good speaker and makes some excellent points.

Ah, Winston, the Confederate battle flag was used by Army of Tennessee units from 1863 on. Also used on Confederate navy ships. Army of Northern Virginia were square others were a typical flag shape.

kyoteblue – good for you. Glad you contributed that.

Isn't this tread about the history and use of the Confederate battle flag and the speech from 2005?

If people want to fly that flag over their homes or backyards I could care less, but to fly a enemy flag or a symbol of something similar that was used to fight against the United States should never have been allowed to fly over any Government building.

Dead on, Irish!! We have found something we agree on whole heartedly!!

Long live the Union, down with traitors.

Irish Marine, I was born in Columbia SC and we uns do not see it as an "enemy flag or symbol". The State House Building is a SC government building and not a Federal Building. It still has the scars from where Yankees shot at it with cannons before the invaders burned down my home town.

I think whatever flies over the State House in SC is no bobby's business unless they live in SC or are from there. South Carolinians have never cared for outside folks telling us what we should or should not do. I do not support the racist idiot who shot those poor people in that church. I was worried when the news of the shooting first came. My Brother and his wife attend a multi-ethnic, nondenominational Christian Church in North Charleston. My prayers go out to the families of those folks killed. If taking down the flag gives those folks some peace, I am for it as long as it is a decision made by South Carolinians and not outside people.

Just remember, the politically correct folks that wanted the flag down so bad also hate the American flag and will eventually want to take it down from public places as well.

Oh, please. You couldn't have said anything more ridiculous.

Of course you wouldn't see it as a "Enemy Flag" but I do, and a lot of others do as well.

Agreed! It almost feels like, even today, South Carolina doesn't want to be a part of the Union. Why?

Nazrat, you haven't been following the news have you.

My favorite was the people signing to petition to change the United States flag due to what was done to the Indians and others by the government. Also another to remove statues of George Washington because he was a slave owner.

Both were being done to show how stupid people are (one was done in S. Cali, the other on univ. Texas campus, Austin) and were not real ideas, yet people were signing on to support those ideas.

One person at UofTexas said having a statue of Washington was like having a statue of Hitler on campus. You can't make this stuff up, it is that crazy.

There are conversations about removing the Jefferson Memorial in DC because he owned slaves.

So for ridiculous statements, look at the groups pushing the current witch hunt.

Now the PC folks want to dig up Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife from their final resting place and move them somewhere else.

Irish Marine, If you feel it is an "Enemy Flag" I understand. Again, the decision to take it down should have been one made by folks living in South Carolina and not New York.

Nazrat, I humbly reciprocate your opinion.

But the Flag was brought down by the people of SC; your really good looking female Gov did it. I lived in the South for some years and I really like the South I'm trying to move there with my family, but I never understood the whole waving the Confederate flag thing, it just shows how really ed off you are that your side lost. And it always seemed to me that it was a dude in a wife beater shirt and rusted pickup truck flying it and not a Doctor in BMW. And Sir Walter Rlyeh you are missing the point from the get go, if you're not a racist and you are a American WHY WOULD YOU WANT IT FLOWN considering what it represents.

Of course you don't understand the Confederate Flag thing, your not from these parts. Of course I am sorry my side lost, they were my people. I am an American, but I am also a South Carolinian. That distinction is one reason folks fought in the War Between the States. I dislike that the flag was adopted by racists, especially by racists that have never seen the South.

Also my Uncle is a Gynecologist in Charleston. He would not be caught dead in a BMW but does fly the flag. He and every living adult male member of my family have served in the US armed forces, although my Brother was only in the Air Force.

That aside, Irish Marine, if I see you at Historicon I'll happily buy you a beer.

Sir Walter,

You are sorry your side lost?

Meaning you would have liked to see

1) The United States split apart?
2) A new nation that supported and condoned slavery?

Yet, you state your Americanism. Hmmm.

Sir Walter Rlyeh your statement posted here to me is an open admission of racism. The war was fought because of Slavery you do know that I hope? South Carolina and other states left the Union after President Lincoln won the election he didn't even have a chance to do anything just threaten that he was willing to abolish slavery ,keep the spread of Slavery into the border states and after that South Carolina fired on US Forces. Lincoln took office in March of 1861 and South Carolina fired on Sumter in April of 1861. I could almost understand the South's problem if Lincoln had started Legislation to end slavery but he didn't even get a chance to do that. So no I don't understand people's love of that Flag, except for what it stands for. Thank God my ancestors fought against it, two of them in the Irish Brigade. I won't make to Historicon but if I did I would be happy to game and drink beer with you as long as it's Irish.

Inkpaduta, as founded the United States of America condoned slavery but does not do so now so moot point number two does not seem valid to me.

As too the splitting apart of the United States, y'all can have the Blue ones.

Irish Marine, trust me I understand loving your ancestors. It's a thing we do down here. My people fought for States Rights, something the United States today could use more of. I'll drink a pint to your and your family's health the next time I'm at Napper Tandy's Pub.

I think one of the more shocking was that the flag was flown from the top of the Massachusetts state house in 1951.

This incident occurred in 1950. Some "prankster" as a local paper described them (more likely a Strom Thurmond supporter) snuck in around midnight and put the flag up. As soon as it was discovered it was removed. Rather then a sign of support it was the type of mindless thugery done by soulless individuals like the ones who paint swastikas on temples or like the one who recently hung a confederate flag off the Colonel Shaw 54th regiment memorial. I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for them.

Sir Walter Rlyeh, You have stated and correctly that the United States of America condoned slavery but 8 out of the 16 Presidents were from the South not counting both Houses in Washington, so it's no wonder to me why we had it that long. After the Revolutionary war most Northern states outlawed Slavery it grew stronger

So here is the thing. I've been educated by Murphy on which flag is/was actually flown over the State House. Now, it is a flag with a white border around it. In the center is a very well known device that anyone, and I mean ANYONE, would identify with the Confederate states of America. Now, if you look at the flag that the "Klan" uses, it is a Naval Ensign or something….so I am told. Apparently NOT the same flag. But anyone, and I mean ANYONE, would identify that flag with the Confederate States of America. But they are different flags. But they still have that all familiar device also known as the Cross of St Andrews. You can split hairs about which flag is what but when all is said and done, there is a significant portion of the population that does not share that sentiment. It is a flag of succession so long as that cross is emblazoned across the middle.

If someone wants to fly the flag at home, why not. It's a free country. It should not be flown in an official capacity over the state house.

Sir Walter,

The point I was making was that you stating that you wished the South had won. At that time, regardless what the Founder Fathers did, the North did not have slavery while the South did. Thus, to wish the South had won means that slavery would have continued to exist in the Confederacy and our country would have split up. To say you support that happening then state how you are an American seems to me to be two very separate things. Have you ever done the pledge of Allegiance?

If so, as an American, you swore loyalty to a nation that is undivided and indivisible (ie no "state rights" to secede or break the Union) with justice and liberty for all (clear not then condoning slavery). How does that fit with your desire for the South to have won?

You may say your ancestors fought for state rights but, outside of the issue of slavery, what rights were the South fighting for? Read the Declaration of Sentiments that South Carolina wrote upon seceding. Every reason South Carolina gave for leaving the Union dealt with slavery. If there were other "State Rights" reasons don't you think they would have listed them? The idea of "state rights" emerged after the war with the Lost Cause as Southerners wanted to have a better reason for justifying their secession rather than slavery. It is a myth.

The fact is, Southern states seceded in spite of states' rights, and the Confederacy's founding documents offer plenty of proof. In its constitution, Confederate leaders explicitly provided for the federal protection of slaveholding:
"In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."
It's a provision that clashes jarringly with neo-Confederate mythos—how could the South secede to preserve states' rights if its own constitution mandated legal, federally protected slavery across state borders?
South Carolina was the first state to secede from the Union. On Dec. 24, 1860, its government issued a "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." In it, South Carolinian leaders aired objections to laws in Northern states—specifically, those that sprung from the case of Prigg v. Pennsylvania (1842), in which the US Supreme Court ruled that state authorities could not be forced to help return fugitive slaves to the South. Ensuing individual state legislation in New England would double down on that very ruling, expressly forbidding state officials from enforcing the federal Fugitive Slave Acts, or the use of state jails to detain fugitive slaves.
In effect, South Carolina seceded because the federal government would not overturn abolitionist policies in Northern states. South Carolina seceded because the federal government would not violate a state's right to abstain from slavery and its concomitant policies.

Y'all know I am a Historical Wargamer and a reader of History, right? To say that I root for the beloved Confederacy is in the same ballpark as saying that I wish Rome had not fallen or that I wish Bonnie Prince Charlie had beaten German George. It does not mean I am a fan of slavery. How much grief do y'all give the folks who only plays the Germans in WWII games?

Yup, I have pledged allegiance to an indivisible nation. That was in the twentieth century, some time after the War of Northern Aggression. The Yankees won, we uns had to stay in the Union and give up Florida. You now, the Confederacy also had an indivisible clause.

I have also taken an oath to protect and defend the constitution. A constitution that an over powerful federal government seems to ignore when it suits them. Since I took this oath at seventeen as opposed to a pledge at six or there about, I take it a bit more seriously. Had we lost the Revolution, I would have pledged allegiance to the King and joined the British Army.

Also, I would have taken off my Gamecocks hat and placed it on my Southern heart when you said Lost Cause but my Momma raised me not to wear a cap inside. Please note, that while I am feeling a bit outnumbered it is not yet ten to one and we all know that "myth" as well.

This guy seems to think the single issue of succession is slavery.

We have dissolved the late Union chiefly because of the negro quarrel. Now, is there any man who wished to reproduce that strife among ourselves? And yet does not he, who wished the slave trade left for the action of Congress, see that he proposed to open a Pandora's box among us and to cause our political arena again to resound with this discussion. Had we left the question unsettled, we should, in my opinion, have sown broadcast the seeds of discord and death in our Constitution. I congratulate the country that the strife has been put to rest forever, and that American slavery is to stand before the world as it is, and on its own merits. We have now placed our domestic institution, and secured its rights unmistakably, in the Constitution. We have sought by no euphony to hide its name. We have called our negroes 'slaves', and we have recognized and protected them as persons and our rights to them as property.

--Robert Hardy Smith, Representative, Alabama 1861

I'm sure he was mistaken. It must have been about states rights.

Of course it was about States Rights, it just so happens the most important Right was to maintain the ownership of slaves.

No the war was started and mostly fought over economics and states rights vs Central government. Big Part of that economics was slave labor vs northern farming with paid workers. It later became a battle cry for the release of slaves as we all know.
I really wonder what they are teaching in histry class these days? It only been 7 years for mine.

MG

"…down with traitors".

Ivan, you do realize our nation was founded by "traitors", right?

These are the two best reasons I've seen to date for removing the flag:

link

Ivan, you do realize our nation was founded by "traitors", right?

Your only a traitor if you lose and the South lost.

Comparing the American colonies to southern states is a false equivalency. The colonies were exactly that. They did not enjoy the same rights and representation that a state enjoyed in 1861. American colonists did not enjoy the full rights and privileges of British citizenship in the same way that citizens of southern states enjoyed full US citizenship (assuming you weren't a slave).

No southern state, with the exception of Texas, had ever been its own sovereign nation so the "choice" between state and country is an empty choice because the state was and is subordinate to the federal government in every way that matters. True in 1861 and still true today. BTW, nothing is more hilarious than seeing a clueless redneck driving a truck with a secede bumper sticker next to one saying support our troops. Those two sentiments are mutually exclusive since every member of the military regardless of rank has sworn to protect and defend the constitution and that includes against any attempt at succession.

Hah! you yanks, as bad as us Brits and them barbarians across to the north :)
And Irish Marine why 'Irish' you blaze your colours vibrantly I'd have thought 'American Marine' more apt.
So its a flag and some fellas don't like it, (they have issues) some fellas don't like your stars and stripes either ask all those Tehranians who walk over it every morning on there way to work, yet your government are desperate to make friends with that lot. Yet here we are debating flags from a bygone era. The flag I grew up under is gone the new flag? meh! Like I said elsewhere I don't sing or salute for any country they only sell you out and tax you to the bargain, those teary eyed for some long lost state of grace from governments need to see that in the interests of the few the interests of the many are but cigar butts.
Cheers keeping my flags small and proud (approx 1 to 2 inches depending on scale :) gents stop fighting over causes you cant win and rather walk behind these stupid PC groups for when they trip as they will you'll be there for the laugh.

Keeping a symbol in historical perspective is a completely different issue from displaying it for political purposes. I doubt anyone here would object to someone showing up with a Swastica on their 1/72 scale model Stuka or as an air recognition symbol on an early war German recon vehicle nor would anyone object to having a scale representation of a Confederate unit having the battle flag with that unit that was historically appropriate. That doesn't mean I want my senator or congressman to display a Nazi or Confederate flag in or outside his/her government office (they can do as they please in their private residence however).

Wow didn't expect this much traffic (but guess I should have). But from most of comments doesn't seem many spent the 35 min or so to watch or listen. I assume anyone flying the Confederate flag doesn't wish they were back in antebellum south no more than a black guy on a motorcycle I saw on Friday with a WWII German helmet wishes for the days of the Third Reich.

Only the good ol' US of A would kneejerk to a nationwide frenzy over banning a flag and not look to ban assault rifles, automatic weapons and handguns from 'general sale' as a result of the guy parading around wearing the flag. Priorities so out of whack that it's mindboggling.

my people were union men. i honor them.
this is nothing but anti american rage. that battle flag has nothing to do with slavery. and if we're being frank, it is'nt even a "klan thing". do some of those groups fly it? sure. but those groups mostly fly the us flag or a nazi flag.
these s pulling this battle flag down today will fall all over themselves tearing down old glory tommorow if given the chance. they hate america.

this is nothing but anti American rage . . . they hate America.

Haha! Keep telling yourself that. Personally, I think they love America more than most. Does that thought keep you up at night? Hope not, everyone should get a good night's sleep every night.

And "the PC crowd" sure does seem to have racked up quite a string of victories lately.

that battle flag has nothing to do with slavery

And yet the symbol in the middle of the white band around the outside is readily identifiable with a hate group. Not terribly different from the swastika.

I could simply apply your logic. It would be bad form around these parts to fly the Nazi flag. But what if I put up another flag with a swastika on it? Maybe a blue flag? Nobody would ever associate that with Nazi Germany or any hate groups right? After all, it's not like it is the Nazi flag. It's just a flag with a symbol of prosperity on it.

Just to add another perspective -- a lot of state flags were flown by Confederate rebel soldiers, too. The Lone Star Flag, in particular, was common in all units from Texas. SOOOOoooo… who is going to start advocating that Texas junk the Lone Star Flag because it, too, is tainted by association with a cause that is seen as racist/traitorous by moderns (moderns from the winning side, certainly)?

One this starts, where does it end?

There are plenty of American Indians with good cause to object to what was done to their ancestors last century by soldiers and officials flying the US national flag -- so what's the reaction going to be if tribes demand the national flag be banned from their lands or buildings?

As to the confederate flag not being about racism or slavery? I think we should ask those who lived then. Here is William Tappen Thompson who edited the Savannah newspaper and who helped design one of the many national flags. Here is what he said about the flag;

As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause…. Such a flag…would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as the white mans flag… As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.

Good god, there you go confusing the issue with FACTS, B6. 8)=

i sleep very well. my many firearms keep me warm.

look, i'll likely get flamed for admitting this, but when i was a young man, i had a inside view of hate groups. it took the army and my wife(spanish) to get it into my head that people are people. all of worth and good and bad in every sector of society.
but i also know that this is america. what i believe and what you believe are both valid opinions. i served my country in afghanistan. saw good men die in that hole. for the freedoms we have here.
this flag business is gonna snowball. in fact, it already has. someone linked me about the naacp wanting to take down monuments on stone mountain. it won't happen, because thats private land(so the link said.). people are defacing civil war monuments. and now there is a new internet thing about filming people going on private property and tearing down peoples battle flags. its all a joke until some homeowner shots one of these trespassers. then its a lawsuit, right?
i'm not from the south, but i understand people there are not all kkk members.
this should'nt even be a topic. this is a miniatures page.

No the war was started and mostly fought over economics and states rights vs Central government. Big Part of that economics was slave labor vs northern farming with paid workers. It later became a battle cry for the release of slaves as we all know.

Yes but the point is that slavery was the single most important thing in all of that, as the whole Southern economy was tied to it, given its agrarian nature and the lack of any idea of moving to, or ability to try and compete with the North's industrial base.

The orginal war aim of the North was not to end slavery but it was certainly the aim of the South to maintain it and it's written in every Act of Secession passed by the individual States at the time and can still be seen on line and in print.

So you can list a number of things about economics, States Rights etc but underneath each and everyone is always slavery, because its existence was the single common and most important difference between the North and South and a place that each and every argument eventually led to.

In 1861 No Slavery = No South as far as the Southern States political leadership was concerned and they were convinced staying in the Union was incompatible with their interests because of it.

Hence the war was and always will be about slavery – maybe not the glorious moral crusade some might imagine but slavery nevertheless.

Dead on Trajanus. I would add one thing. Wasn't just about owning slaves, the South was determined to expand slavery into the west. They wanted it to grow. When the Republicans won the 1860 elections, a party dedicated to not ending slavery but rather stopping it from expanding, is when southern states seceded.

Historians abound on this site – maybe.

How many are familiar with the debates going on in the
South in the period 1802 – 1832 regarding how EVIL
and DEBILITATING slavery was to the ECONOMY, DEVELOPMENT
and MORAL STANDING of the South ?

(Clement Eaton, _Freedom of Thought in the Old South_,
Durham, North Carolina 1940; Adams, _The Neglected Period
of Anti-Slavery in America 1808-1832_ Boston 1908)

Not many, I'd wager. Still, the proslavery forces won
out (Jenkins, _Proslavery Thought in the Old South_,
Chapel Hill, 1935)

The citations are dated, true, but RELEVANT.

Opinion in any society is seldom 100% in one direction. Abolition in the North was certainly not a majority view, even within the Republican party, as we know.

That said, whatever debate was had North or South of the Mason – Dixon line and all those events that occured in the 1830's/40's and 50's. At the end of the day, the decision maker's in the South who saw the halt of westward expansion, the demise of the Whigs and formation of the Republican party as a direct and inevitable threat to what they believed in, made dammed sure that anti slavery views prevailed!

Ed,

Yes, I am aware of that. Virginia actually was debating ending slavery in the 1830s. Just not germane to this discuss as the South did not, in the end, get rid of slavery. Yet, you are right and thus tens of thousands of white Southern men were Unionists and fought for the Union. Secession was never a 100% supported thing, again, the Lost Cause has tried to make it appear that all Southerners did support the Confederacy. It would be interesting to find out how many in the South today associate with the "heritage" of the Confederate battle flag actually had ancestors who fought to save the Union.

Republican party as a direct and inevitable threat to what they believed in, made dammed sure that anti slavery views prevailed!

Whoops, major brain fade! That should of course read "made dammed sure pro slavery views prevailed"