"COLD WARS AS THE NORTHEAST'S CONVENTION" Topic

Just remember, the Virginians and gamers from much further South went NORTH for all that time Historicon was in PA, cheerfully, enjoying it. Driving through that same portentous DC traffic. And we'd do it again, Without complaining, if the venue moved. Because we're like that. Our weak sisters in the North can't seem to make the same sacrifice, even grudgingly. It's disappointing. Oh well. Maybe HISTORICON will become a smaller regional convention from now on, that seems to be what people want.

Walt

<quote>Fall In at Gettysburg was great but the Ike makes the Host look like a 5-Star Resort with the added charm of actively not working with HMGS to make anything better (he said remembering cat shows and worse food options than Andersonville).</quote>

Actually I think the logding at the Host is poor and getting worse every convention, but it is difficult to find that much gaming space at the price. Does anyone remember the Sunday of no hot water? The rooms are not clean, but at least the staff is personable, generally. There are lots of alternatives for lodging near enough the host so that it is not a big deal. The gaming layout is pretty good at the host. I've not seen better, except perhaps Valley Forge.

While I didn't like the gaming being spread so far apart in Gettysburg, I think the lodging was superior to the Host.

Also, the host does a pretty good job with food -- and again there are options nearby. My only gripe on food at Cold Wars is that it always falls during lent, and there are rarely any no-meat options available.

<quote>Cold Wars is my absolute favorite but I certainly agree that fudging a week or two towards the middle/end of the month is reasonable and prudent.</quote>

I am finding that Cold Wars is increasingly becoming my favorite convention of the year. Frankly that period between Christmas and Spring Break, what we used to call the gloom period, is helped significantly by the anticipation of a weekend of gaming.

Walt:

For me, the mileage is shorter, but the traffic is so horrendous is just ruins it. Of course I only go to an con on Friday, and that is THE worst day of the week for DC traffic, especially on I95 South. Further, I really don't care for the FCC. The noise level was awful (to me) and the lighting in the side rooms as bad as other venues. I know they tried to mitigate the noise.

I love the history of the Fredericksburg area though.

I'm with Buck, I'd probably take the Ike again, warts and all. Like the other venues, there are plenty of other hotel options nearby – within 15 minutes. Driving through the battlefield is worth it in itself. If HMGS can't pull it off, I'd be happy to negotiate for an outside catering options on site. The gaming rooms are superior – in my view – to the Host. The newer hotel rooms are superior to the Host in that they have individual control of the heat/AC. Not saying the Ike isn't a dump, but then again, so is the Host. Big metal barn sheds with concrete floors are not my pick for gaming conventions.

Caveat – I have not been to the Ike in a while. It may have declined overall too, at least according to Double G.

Walt,

That's not the issue. I've gone to other events that were far from where I live, including in the south. I think it is great when someone can get away and support an event outside their immediate area.

The problem with H'con is that it was taken away, moved from the area that built it, supported it. A lot of people who went for 25 years were really upset by the way that was done.

If someone wanted to do an event in VA, I'd say more power to them. I'd even say HMGS should support it. But if you wanted to support northern college football you wouldn't snatch the Orange Bowl and move it to Metlife Stadium in NJ.

Historygamer,
I don't know the full details, but I'm pretty sure the casino that was rumored to be built in Gettysburg was going onto the Ike site, so the owners let the place backslide into full dump status.

At least that's what it looks like to me; now that the casino is no longer in play, maybe they will put money back into the place.

All I remember is how brutal the food was in the dealer hall in the All Star complex, it was ice hockey rink pizza level bad, the food in the bar at the hotel wasn't much better.

At the toy soldier show I attended there the past two years, they brought an outside caterer in and the food was very good, no reason why they can't do the same if we end up back there.

The only downside to that site is the flea market and dealer hall are at the All Star while the gaming is at the hotel and walking back and forth is not appealing to attendees. I remember one year at Fall In it rained Vietnam/Burma monsoon style for two days strait and it was a disaster……….

I have some land in the Gettysburg area and go up there twice a year just to keep tabs (coincides nicely with CW and FI). I love the area and to be fair, haven't set foot in the Ike since we left BUT, as Double G says, they bet the ranch on tearing it down for a casino and aggressively put the bare minimum into keeping it open. Post casino failure that may have changed but, about two years ago when booking a hotel in town, the Ike was offering rooms at $25 USD per night. If they've invested anything recently, I didn't see it driving by this past March but as I said, I didn't feel the slightest need to pull in and look.

Long story short – old owner died, left the Ike to his senior employees. May have been on the market a long time. No takers. Local Harley shop owner said he would buy it if he got the casino license. He started measuring the place for new stuff, they didn't win, Nemacolin Woodlands did, I guess he walked away. Thus back in limbo.

Agree about the food. For a short while it beat the Host (for those that remember that), but the restaurant was a joke. Then it didn't.

The split venue is not ideal, but neither is the Host, nor FCC.

I suspect the BOD is fully aware of all other possible sites.

Sigh. :-(

That's not the issue. The problem with H'con is that it was taken away, moved from the area that built it, supported it. A lot of people who went for 25 years were really upset by the way that was done.

Respectfully, I think people are *making* it the issue because they feel entitled. They feel this way because the convention was in one swiftly crumbling venue for a 20 period span. I went to Historicon when it was at the Holiday Inn in Alexandria, and in New Carrollton, and the Penn Harris. I don't care where the convention is. I'll go. I don't think the BoD "owes me" any special consideration other than to make three cons happen a year without going bankrupt. If HISTORICON moves in the future, I'll go to where it is being held and have fun, without complaining, without taking my football and staying home.

Now, I respect that people are butt hurt about the Host move, but NOBODY has found a replacement for the Host.. yet. That venue won't last forever, we all know that. Has ANYONE found a PA based convention site that meets our requirements? They've been posted on TMP recently and in the past. Any volunteers for a venue search committee? No? Plenty of people complaining though. I get it-- you want the BoD to pull that cart for you. What if a venue can't be found? Think about the ramifications for CW and FI then…

Walt

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From the Virginia Beach Convention Center website:

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I have offered you four alternatives; let the criticism begin.

But I also offer this challenge; you may only criticize my recommendations if you can provide a viable alternative.

Isn't it time we started to discuss alternatives instead of the endless debating about the Host vs. the FCC?

Ya'll are funny bickering about the short distances. I travel to the shows from Texas. How about we move Historic on west of the Mississippi river?

I rather dislike the convention sites without lodging on premises. I don't count a walk through the parking lot as premises.

The Host is not great but it gets the job done and has lots of gaming space. Plus they put up with a mass of gamers coming in who do contribute to that wear and tear. I won't even dwell on the leaving of feces covered underwear in the bathrooms.

This is why we cannot have anything nice. :)

Tumbleweed,

I don't have a viable alternative, but I do have some comments on your suggestions. As far as the Jake is concerned, New York is a great place, but, I fear, it is far too expensive for many members. Virginia Beach may be a good place except, if people are bitching that it takes too long to drive to Fredericksburg, they won't like driving another three or four hours further south to Virginia Beach. Pittsburgh is 369 miles from NYC and Fredericksburg is 284 from NYC, but maybe the traffic is better. The backups on the Chesepeake Bay Bridge to the Eastern Shore can be bad, but I assume most people from the North would come through Delaware.

I would go to any of these places with no complaint, but they all appear to have serious drawbacks that would cause problems for others.

dbf1676:

As I said, "let the criticism begin." But you did not respond to the spirit of the challenge. You can criticize all you want, but you MUST provide an alternative.

Walt:

Yes, I would say it is fair that people who attend feel entitled. I think we all found that out about the tournament gamers. Remember that fiasco? We have seen how all the fantasy and sci fi gamers have reacted to posts – and you have been attending long enough to remember when those games were less than 10% of the cons. The Painting U people felt entitled to take over the painting competition. Look what happened to that. I could go on, but yes, the con is full of entitled people, and I may be one of them too. We feel entitled as we have all contributed to the con in some way. :-)

Tumbleweed:

Please cross out the place in Monroeville. I am a native Pittsburgher, go home all the time. That area is a bit sketchy and the mall across the street has been experiencing some severe flash mob riots and some violence (guns, knives). It is not a great part of town (sorry if anyone reading this is from there).

I would also suggest that Pittsburgh is too far west as well for many of the past attendees. It is about 4.5 hours from Lancaster.

I long ago recommended the BOD look at the convention hotel center in Rockville. I doubt anyone did. It is very nice, on the metro line – near BWI, Reagan and not too far from Dulles. Several hotels in the area, free metro parking garage on the weekend across the street. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission holds its public conference there every year, attended by a lot of people (hundreds/thousands?). It is very nice and could hold either FI or CW.

At least two previous CDs for Hcon felt that the Hampton VA con center was better than the FCC, but the then BOD felt it was too far. Maybe it is.

Personally, I'd favor a hotel conference center, downsize the number of games offered, cut some of the dealers that offer marginal wares to the hobby of historical miniature gaming. Just me, but that would put a lot more options on the table.

Might I suggest that we are all missing the gorilla in the room. We can smell his stank, but we haven't yet realized that it is him we need to focus on.

Once upon a time all 3 HMGSE cons were held in the same general area, south central Pa. They mostly boasted the same core of vendors, and the game offerings were pretty similar. Fall Inn and Cold Wars both drew in the 1500-2000 range. Historicon, before the great migration, drew upwards of 3000.

Given their semi-apples to apples similarities, I had always imagined that there was a hard core 1500-2000 people who attended all 3 cons, and an additional 1500 who attended Historicon only, because it was the " mother of all…" whatnot.

Now that Historicon has moved twice and is now in Fredericksburg, and has lost some 25%-30% of its' former attendance, there has been thread after thread about the future of the con. By best estimates, HCon is now drawing 2500 per show, down from its' old high of 3500.

That is a drop of 1,000 people.

That is one helluva lot of people.

Clearly, something about the move(s) cost us their support.

Strangely, if these people were all that unhappy with the move, they did not throw their support behind any of the other East cons. FI and CW attendance have been level, or has eroded some.

The assumption, always a dangerous passtime, has been that the lost 1000 went away because they resented the move, or disliked some aspect of the Fredburg site, or the drive to it, or the noise, or whatever.

The knee-jerk reaction has been to urge that Historicon be moved back north, assuming that that would rectify the loss in attendance.

But the gorilla in the room is that we do not KNOW who these 1000 were. We don't know where they are not coming from. We do not know where, if anywhere, they are going instead. Most of all, we do not know why they stopped coming.

Unless and until we devote some concerted, dare I say scientific, effort into finding out who these 1000 people were, why they left and where they went, we will have no idea how to try to win them back. We will not understand the true nature of what has gone wrong nor have any idea how to put it right. We won't even be able to gauge whether Historicon's bleeding at Fredericksburg has stopped, or if its' attendance is at further risk.

Until we better understand what has gone wrong, and why, all our musings on the subject will be little better than trying to induce a stream of urine to ascend a column of braided hemp.

Knowledge is power.

Sorry to have this slight derail, but I have to respond to this old canard:

We have seen how all the fantasy and sci fi gamers have reacted to posts – and you have been attending long enough to remember when those games were less than 10% of the cons.

HG, see if you can understand this. There are no exclusive fantasy and sci-fi gamers that would go to the HMGS cons. They are ALL historical gamers who, unlike yourself, have interests outside of historicals. Some are on this very thread. They react negatively to your comments because you repeatedly misrepresent the situation. And this detracts from your argument.

KP,
Well said and excellent post. Why not spend a tiny fraction of our HMGS war chest and compare attendee registration data between Hcon attendance from its peak level and today. At least it might put an end to the endless speculation this board loves to engage in.

HMGS would then have a targeted list of potential attendees to actively market to (those that are still with us). Maybe we find there is no recovering those numbers and we can focus on a more appropriately sized venue.

TRU

Back on topic:

I long ago recommended the BOD look at the convention hotel center in Rockville. I doubt anyone did. It is very nice, on the metro line – near BWI, Reagan and not too far from Dulles. Several hotels in the area, free metro parking garage on the weekend across the street.

Is that the Bathesda North Marriott CC? I think that is a nice setting personally. One downside that I see is the higher cost of nearby accommodations. Another is that there also seems to be an onsite parking fee. That would be a deal breaker.

KP wrote – "Unless and until we devote some concerted, dare I say scientific, effort into finding out who these 1000 people were, why they left and where they went, we will have no idea how to try to win them back."

….. Indeed. It's a shame that the dog appears to have eaten all of HMGS's HCon demographic attendee data.

B

As I said, "let the criticism begin." But you did not respond to the spirit of the challenge. You can criticize all you want, but you MUST provide an alternative.

Ok, Tumbleweed. I would say that the Valley Forge CC is better than any of your four candidates. And the VFCC a is far from ideal.

The Jacob Javits Center? We could could fit every miniature wargaming convention on the East coast into that place at the same time!!

Tumbleweed forgot the place that was already looked at and offered relatively cheap : Hampton Convention Center in VA.

At a Glance
• 344,000 total square feet of space
• 35 flexible spaces with capacity for 14,000 people
• Grand ballroom accommodates 1,800 for banquets
• Exhibit hall covering 102,000 square feet in 3 sections, each with its own elephant door for load-in and load-out, climate control, lighting control, and concession sales.
• Conference center with private access
• Outdoor terrace for special events
• Connected to 295-suite convention headquarters hotel
• There are 1,600 hotel rooms within walking distance of the Hampton Roads Convention Center
• There are 2,800 hotel rooms in Hampton citywide
• Wireless Internet available

PDF link

Distance from the core area was the main concern.

Just remember, the Virginians and gamers from much further South went NORTH for all that time Historicon was in PA, cheerfully, enjoying it. Driving through that same portentous DC traffic. And we'd do it again, Without complaining, if the venue moved. Because we're like that. Our weak sisters in the North can't seem to make the same sacrifice, even grudgingly. It's disappointing. Oh well. Maybe HISTORICON will become a smaller regional convention from now on, that seems to be what people want.

Walt

Walt, I have to say you utterly shocked me with this post. You're the last person that I thought would post something that I really thought was, for the lack of a better word, ignorant. Let me explain….

When the first proposal to move the con to Baltimore came up, I was there at the membership meeting. I asked questions like, "how many members do you expect to lose by moving this convention?" "How many members do you expect to gain with this move?" On those two questions alone I got blank stares. Right then I knew the BoD didn't do their homework.

Let's fast forward to the move to FCC. Judging from the decline in attendance it seems nobody bothered to answer those questions.

This isn't north\ south issue. This isn't a case of your "northern sisters" not supporting the convention. This is a clear case of lack of planning. We never set definitions for success or failure. We didn't have any type of a roll back plan. We never figured out who would attend and who would walk away. Walt, in business, this would be known as a "resume updating" moment.

Now lets talk about another part of the post – supporting the convention. There seems to be a growing notion that we're all in this to support Historicon. Baloney. Ultimately, the convention is supposed to be for the attendees. It's a time to relax, enjoy and get away from the stresses of life. The moment that does not happen then I'm not going to attend. I'm not in this to support your good time. I'm not in this to support a convention that feels it can better service the gaming community further south. If the BoD feels the gaming community is better served by moving HCon south, then get gamers local to the area to support it. If cannot be done, then don't blame your "Norther Sisters".

Put the blame where it belongs – squarely on the shoulders of the people that moved the convention there.

Nicely put King30.

Walt,

It's not entitlement to expect something that was in a place for 30 years, that you and your friends have attended and supported for all or most of that time, will not be moved somewhere else because a few mongrels managed to get on the BoD and impose their own personal desires on the organization.

I'll discuss the issue on here, but I still go. But I know lots of people who don't.

Well said King30.

Bowman:

We don't know all the gaming proclivities of attendees.

While some historical gamers may be fantasy gamers, not all are. My point being – HMGS used to cater almost exclusively to the historical crowd. It no longer does. Those that now like to game fantasy stuff feel entitled now to do so because any pretense of being an exclusively military historical gaming convention has gone away. Not sure what problem you have with that statement? It is not a shot at anyone, just a fact of how HMGS cons have changed.

Bowman, et al:

Yes that is the facility in question. I am 99.99% certain the parking fee is there to discourage people not at the hotel parking there and taking the metro during the week days. I am sure something could be worked out to accommodate a con there and free parking. It is a very nice facility. Can't account for hotel costs in the area. If you want that then go back to the Host or Ike. FCC area hotels aren't cheap.

KPinder:

If I recall correctly, some very in depth analysis of the people who attended and dropped out was done some years ago, prior to the proposed move to BCC. There may have been some research to look into why people weren't returning to the Host for Hcon and other cons. One of the reasons given for loss of attendance was that people were dissatisfied with the facilities of the Host. That was part of the reason/excuse to move Hcon to BCC – to gain nicer facilities. They were very nice – but not practical for our needs.

Again, if I recall correctly, supposedly thousands had attended an HMGS con once, twice, etc, but not returned. The then BOD tried to gather their mailing info and reach out to them with advertising flyers. Of course, the rest is history.

My point being, if people like the facility, activities and location they will come. CW and FI are impacted by weather, holidays, school, etc, and are not likely to ever grow to the size of Hcon – or what it was.

If I recall correctly, some very in depth analysis of the people who attended and dropped out was done some years ago, prior to the proposed move to BCC. There may have been some research to look into why people weren't returning to the Host for Hcon and other cons. One of the reasons given for loss of attendance was that people were dissatisfied with the facilities of the Host. That was part of the reason/excuse to move Hcon to BCC – to gain nicer facilities. They were very nice – but not practical for our needs

I'd like to see criteria for and the results of this analysis. Is it currently available?

I get it-- you want the BoD to pull that cart for you

Let me try and understand what you're actually saying – we should do the job of the BoD for them? No problem. Here is a quick fix for you.

We seem to agree that the numbers are not what was expected over at the FCC. People are unhappy – based on the fact that we're not pulling the attendees we expected.

In this situation, we call this "roll back". Temporary move the convention to either the Host or VF for two, maybe three years. Look at what when wrong and how you can avoid it going forward. Take a close look at where your demographic base is. Figure out what the acceptable driving distance is. Now start looking for a place.

While you're doing this, figure out how to make Historicon develop it's own positive identity. Make people say, "Wow, I have to attend Historicon". The BoD is good at replicating conventions – but that isn't what's needed here.

HG,

I won't belabour the point beyond this.

We don't know all the gaming proclivities of attendees.

But, that doesn't stop you from exclaiming, "We have seen how all the fantasy and sci fi gamers have reacted to posts". What fantasy and Sci-FI gamers? Don't pretend the denizens of Adepticon and GW Gamesdays are swooping down onto the HMGS cons to wrestle them away from the historical players.

The guys putting on the Zombie game in the morning are the same ones putting on a ACW, WW2 Naval, or Napoleonic game that evening. Last year my WW1 Russians got clobbered in the WW1 mini tourney, and then defeated the Japanese in a VSF Russo-Japanese battle in China. The co-author of the preeminent VSF rules "GASLIGHT" has contributed to this thread just above us. If you call him a Sci-FI gamer then you really don't know what else he has done. You may want to check the "Zones of Interest" section on the profiles of those on this thread.

HG, if you want to run for the BOD on a platform to reduce the non-historical gaming then I won't stop you. It's not that big an issue with me. I'd be fine with dropping it to the proverbial 10%. Just don't look at your colleagues and see distinctions that aren't there. I believe that the proclivities of the typical war gamer is a little broader than you appreciate.

Last year my WW1 Russians got clobbered in the WW1 mini tourney, and then defeated the Japanese in a VSF Russo-Japanese battle in China

Now THAT was a fun game!!

"I believe that the proclivities of the typical war gamer is a little broader than you appreciate."

I thought that is what I said Bowman when I said, "We don't know all the gaming proclivities of attendees.". The topic was gamers who attend who feel entitled to something. I did not suggest anything more. I think you are ascribing certain thoughts to my post that just weren't there.

TheKing30 – while I worked for past BODs in a supporting role, I was not privy to all their information. You would have to start by asking the current BOD if they have any archive files of such data analysis, or perhaps something newer still. If not, you'd have to ask members of the BOD that voted for the move if they have any analysis. I'll ask around too, but I can assure you, other than the 10 year attendance trend I posted way back when in the HMGS files section, I don't retain any HMGS data.

When the board chose FEC, it was their third choice. Indianapolis was the #1 choice to meet the criteria but clearly too far. Hampton/Va Beach was #2, but it was also deemed too far. FEC was #3.

I'd suggest you post the other results in the HMGS yahoo site – they said they were actively looking for new venues and would be happy to investigate. The two biggest issues are price and location. FEC was considered the best of those two criteria.

The criteria John Drye posted there that the panel used:

REQUIREMENTS

To be considered, any site must meet all or most of the factors below.

1. Geographic Location: in or near rough triangle: Harrisburg, PA; Washington, DC; Philadelphia, PA
2. Exhibit Hall Space: at least 75,000 square-feet
3. Exhibit hall cost: competitive with current costs
3. Hotel Accommodations: at least 300 rooms co-located or very near exhibit hall; at least 700 additional rooms within 2 miles.
4. Hotel Room Cost: $120 USD or less collocated; some under $100 USD within 2 miles
5. Parking: 1,000 cars on site, convenient space for vendor truck parking
6. Overall Quality: acceptable hotel service = 2+ stars
7. Availability: site is available during convention date windows

COMPARISON CRITERIA

When comparing alternate sites, these are the factors considered.

1. Location Attributes: not mid-city, but near population center
2. Exhibit Space Layout: multiple large halls, breakout rooms, unloading access, flexibility, expandability, food and beverage concessions
3. Exhibit Space Costs: space rental fee, other costs, tables and chairs
4. Accessibility: long-distance and local traffic, airports, rail service
5. Number of Hotel Rooms: quantity, variety, proximity to exhibit space
6. Hotel Room Cost: hotel agreements, variety of price points
7. Onsite Parking/Cost: quantity and cost
8. Local Dining & Tourism: attractive options for attendees and families
9. Prohibitive Issues: loading/unloading requirements, local taxes and fees, other local restrictions
10. Overall Quality: level of hotel accommodations
11. On-line connectivity: throughput to support convention requirements and guest connections, cost

How about this venue: link

I don't know the costs, but on the face of it, this would seem to meet most of the requirements.

I think the Philadelphia convention center is Union and if I recall that caused some issues at past shows at that location (Orgins?). If we cannot load our own stuff in/out then I know that will be a deal breaker.

Plus its downtown Philly, and the membership wasn't very supportive of inner city venues.

Philly convention center has 6 unions (one isn't enough?).

There seems to be a growing notion that we're all in this to support Historicon. Baloney. Ultimately, the convention is supposed to be for the attendees. It's a time to relax, enjoy and get away from the stresses of life. The moment that does not happen then I'm not going to attend. I'm not in this to support your good time. I'm not in this to support a convention that feels it can better service the gaming community further south.

Well at least you are being honest. I assume you can understand that some of us living further south feel exactly the same way.

I am not fixed on the idea that it has to be at FCC, or that the "southern" con needs to be Historicon. However if Historicon is moved up to southeast PA, it just becomes another con in that area as far as my group is concerned.

Well Tumbleweed – a good try. I congratulate you on the effort. But never let it be said that a good presentation of information can't be followed by a trivialized discussion of everything except what you brought up. I thank you for the information you have gathered. It is important. Perhaps some more reasonable folks can actually have a productive discussion of the merits of the sites you have identified. Perhaps not. At one time many years ago, the three conventions were held at three different locations. It seemed to work at the time. But somewhere along the line it became important to fix something that wasn't broke. How do we get back to sanity with regard to these convention locations? If all the above 90+ comments are any indication, we never will.

Well at least you are being honest. I assume you can understand that some of us living further south feel exactly the same way.

I am not fixed on the idea that it has to be at FCC, or that the "southern" con needs to be Historicon. However if Historicon is moved up to southeast PA, it just becomes another con in that area as far as my group is concerned.

Bill, I can respect that. My point is that if Walt assumes we're all going to jump in a car, drive the extra time and distance with no gain he's sadly mistaken.

Many thanks 49mountain. I confess that I wasn't serious when I included the Javits Center because the costs would be enormous for everyone, but the sorry state of the Monroeville PA location really took me by surprise. Flash-mob riots would be enough to turn off anyone.

If it were up to me, I would like to go back to the Penn-Harris, but we have long since been cast out of paradise!

re the Pennsylvania Convention Center

Every other tab on the site has something about the Unions.

link

re Penn Harris – still too small
Its now the Radisson Hotel Harrisburg 30,000 sq ft space, rooms for 1500, looks like someone put some money into it.

The Penn Harris was too small when we left it. I seem to recall that part of the dealer area was in the main gaming room and they simply covered their stuff with sheets when closed.

Here is the facility that I believe could host CW or FI:

link

Remember, like other facilities we use, this one has a lot of off-book floor space, especilly outside the meeting rooms.

Hershey?

link

historygamer – I am familiar with this place. We investigated it when we were discussing the location of our 45th High School reunion (we had 700+ in our graduating class). Our high school was about 5 miles from this place. While it is a splendid facility, we had a problem with the cost and accessibility. In our committee's opinion, the transportation system in this location is almost always congested. Of course, this was just our opinion for the reunion.
R Dean – I never knew Hershey Lodge had over 100,000 sq ft of convention space. This looks to be quite an interesting facility and one that I think should be given at least a preliminary survey for HCON or any of the other HMGS Cons.