"COLD WARS AS THE NORTHEAST'S CONVENTION" Topic

Let us assume that the rift is irreparable. Let us assume that Historicon is "The South's" big convention. What is wrong then with all those who are dissatisfied with the move to Fredericksburg of Historicon, taking part enthusiastically and supportively of Cold Wars which is still in the Host, and make it "The North's" big convention.

Would you be willing to put on games at Cold Wars more than you might have in the past? If you are a dealer would you be willing, if you have boycotted HMGS cons because of the move, make the effort in Cold Wars?

What, if you are dissatisfied with the HMGS, can you overcome that for the sake of the hobby to make Cold Wars a Success?

If you let game masters, who are not members, in free for running games then I would be interesred. I like cold wars.

I have been going to Cold Wars for the past 16 years I suppose. I also used to go to Fall In (Gettysburg) and Historicon (Lancaster)every year but haven't gone to these since they moved. I don't intend to go back to them. I like Cold Wars most because of the early spring time frame. What is always an issue is the unpredictable weather at that time of the year. Friends sometimes are forced to cancel due to ice and snow storms, making their travel dangerous. I wish that the date was moved 2 weeks later though. Less likely to have problems this way.

Weather is a big factor for me. I used to go every year, twenty years ago.
The shifting of months has always made the show difficult to schedule.
But as I said in the beginning, weather is a big factor for attending. I have hit awful snow storms when going to the show. Even back in the 1980s, that was a big issue.

Make Cold Wars later in the year, Last week of March or first of April and add half day Thursday to make the trip more worthwhile and I will recruit a few locals to come.

I understand that dealers do not like the extra day so let them attend just as they do now. Allow flea market on Thursday, however.

With the iffy weather in early March, there will never be a large stable base of attendees. 2015 was a disaster with blizzard.

I agree about moving the date later for CW. This past year was a bust, though my friend and I ran three games. Move it too late though (April) and attendance also suffers, IIRC.

But I'm also not sure Hcon will stay where it's at either. Hcon was the biggie for a number of reasons, not the least of which was its summer time date and location (not the Host per se).

I would also suggest that the BOD have a calendar in hand when they schedule future con dates. There lack of coordinating FI with the federal holiday of Veteran's Day borders on the absurd.

Why not encourage everyone to attend both? If one or the other is too far to attend for someone, that's fine, but it seems that there are some who actively campaign against the success of Historicon in Fredericksburg. This looks like one more such thread. The idea that is has become the "South's" convention is ludicrous. There is no conspiracy to steal Historicon from the Northeasterners.

Full disclosure, I live in Alexandria, Virginia, only a hop skip and a jump from the location of the very first Historicon (if they called it that back then). I've attended nearly every one since the Lanham, Maryland days and it would be fine with me if Historicon stayed in Fredericksburg or moved back to Lancaster, or somewhere else.

I agree with Bobgnar that the last Cold Wars was a disaster.

I will certainly support CW---have been for many years

But, geez, why all the fuss? But I've been going to all three cons for over 25 years (when I was stationed on the East Coast anyway). Currently it takes me about 1.5 hours to get to HCON---used to take 3 hours (from NVA), 5 hours (from Norfolk VA) and 6 hours (from Cleveland OH).

I'd like to go to NJ Convention, too. But it's so far to drive---can you move it to southern NJ, or maybe Delaware, or Northern Md would be good, too!

Why don't we wait until the HMGS election results are announced before making any suggestions regarding convention dates and locations?

FYI, there will be a membership meeting at Historicon in a few weeks. If you have suggestions for the new BOD, you should attend the meeting.

Hope to see you there.

I go to two cons per year, Fall In and Cold Wars. If I can.
If I am driving myself, Historicon is out of the question.

I don't care what you call it. I don't care if it's the "biggest" or "official" or "the Northeast's" or whatever. If I can make it, I'll be there, and I will let others worry about its status or ranking.

The "issues" about the Host and Historicon are in the past.
Why is something considered "irreparable"? I have long gotten over the fact that if something is a 6 hour drive for me, both ways through DC traffic, that H is off my to do list.
Historicon is simply too big for the Host, or was until it started to shrink.
Do we REALLY have to visit that again?
Nobody has discovered the Magic Venue.

For me, Cold Wars already is THE con.

Historicon is too far for the day trip I have time for.

October/November is hellish at work, which is why I've made 2 Fall-Ins in the past 15 years.

By March, I have a tax return, plenty of available time at work, and a serious case of cabin fever.

For many of the folks in our club, this year's Historicon may be their last. Some have already bailed for 2015, and others have drastically curtailed their involvement. We will continue to fully support Fall In and Cold Wars and often try to take in one regional con a year as a group (e.g., NASHCON, Huzzah!, etc.). The drive through DC traffic to get there is just too much for many. I do not understand the move AWAY from major population centers. The number of games and number of vendors seems to be not any bigger than Cold Wars. I don't have a particular venue in mind, but I think the best location for a Northeast convention is somewhere around Philadelphia. It is centrally located, near an airport, and has easy access by road.

"I'd like to go to NJ Convention, too. But it's so far to drive---can you move it to southern NJ, or maybe Delaware, or Northern Md would be good, too!"

Why not attend both NJCON & HCON? I help run NJCON and I go to both.

Besides there are plenty of ways around DC traffic going north.

TRU

Sorry to hear that, Col. Buck. If the HAWKS leave Historicon, they will be missed there but they (and their games) will be enjoyed all the more at Cold Wars and Fall In. As I've said before, you can have a great convention just by playing in games sponsored by the HAWKS. You never have to leave their room.

When a club based in Maryland tells you that they have issues with traffic through DC to Northern VA, you know you have a problem. If the HAWKS reconsider Historicon in VA, there will be a "trickle down" effect for Historicon in terms of fewer games (and high quality, award winning ones at that) and less traffic in the Vendor hall. Club members and GMs do much of the shopping over the course of the weekend. Just ask the vendors.

This coming from one of the leaders of a club that drove hours this year from Maryland to Maine to put on some great looking games at Huzzah! back in May. (You can still find the pictures of the HAWKS games at Huzzah! on TMP.) That should tell you something.

At the risk of sounding like a "Red State" governor trying to lure corporate business from a "Blue State," please allow me to offer an unofficial invitation to the HAWKS to attend NJCon 8 in June 2016 in northern New Jersey. Other than having attended a few NJCons as a player and a GM in the past (I missed it this year), I have no role with the convention other than being a satisfied customer. Perhaps NJCon and Barrage (the HAWKS' convention in September) could set up a "home and home" series when it comes to running games? As a veteran of the old ACC vs. Big East (or Big East vs. ACC, depending on your point of view) basketball tournaments from years ago, I can tell you that such a "rivalry" would be a "win--win" for both groups.

Like I always say, we'll see.

With the iffy weather in early March, there will never be a large stable base of attendees. 2015 was a disaster with blizzard.

I used to attend H'Con and Cold Wars religiously and Cold Wars was always my favorite. Now it's been umptyfrats years since I've been to any convention, and I have to say I wouldn't even plan on attending CW because of weather. We get heavy snowfall in mid-March Far too often. I'm too lazy to do the research, but I'l say three out of five years are a mess. One week later would be golden.

I'm also slightly baffled by people bitching about the distance to Fredericksburg. If you're coming from the North, it's a measly three extra hours. You can't even sing your way through Verdi's Don Carlo in that time.

enfant perdus wrote – "I'm also slightly baffled by people bitching about the distance to Fredericksburg. If you're coming from the North, it's a measly three extra hours."

….. Respectfully disagree, based upon two runs down to Fredericksburg from Massachusetts. We easily do the Lancaster run in 5.5-6 hrs. Fredericksburg is about 11 hours for us.

Re first week of March timing for Cold Wars, though – totally agree. Weather is far too risky. We lost count of the number of accidents we passed by on the way to CW15.

B

Whomever is elected to the BOD, however everyone wants to support H'Con, It is still important to move Cold Wars from the literal cold. It is just too difficult to judge the weather in the first 2/3 of March. It is actually dangerous to attend sometimes. Remove the weather gamble and go later.

By the way, I have attend all Historians since the second one. Loved the Valley Forge site. I will not be driving 12 hours to Fredericksburg this year. Sorry to miss it.

There are those who call us wimps or whatnot for not being willing to drive solo the 6 or 12 hours to Historicon.
Talk to me when you are collecting Social Security. Then call me a wimp.

Wimp.

Well, you asked for it.

From another Social Security recipient.

Well, with the move of H'con, Cold Wars has become the major convention for myself, as well as a few others. I've always actually preferred Cold Wars, anyway (even when I lived in the DC Metro area)--the same vendors, plenty of games, good place to run games, but a much more manageable crowd.

As far as weather,are we to assert that there should be no activity north of Maryland from, say, November to April? I also have friends who flew down to Historicon from the Northeast who wound up getting stranded in Philadelphia because of summer thunderstorms that shut down flights. Seems to me that I recall the electricity going out at the Host in Lancaster during a summer storm. So that would rule out June-August.

Now Winston, I never called anybody a wimp. And yes, one of my superpowers is Long Distance Driving, which makes it harder to empathize.

I will take to heart Brother Blutarski's testimony. Out of curiosity, is it a matter of timing for folks passing through the DC Beltway? I can see rush hour adding an extra two hours to the drive, but what about off hours? Also, has anyone coming from Points North ever tried I-95 (or I-83) to I-97 to MD Route 3/301? Pretty drive and you avoid a lot of headaches.

Years ago Cw sometimes bounced into April. The point being, it can be later than it has been lately.

For many, the extra miles to Fredericksburg aren't the issue so much as the traffic congestion on I95, which occurs there every day of the week, and can back up at a moment's notice. The stretch between Occoquan and Frdericksburg is one of the worst parts of I95 in the region. Friday is also one of the worst days of the week to make that run.

The issue is not your automotive toughness but what people wish or wish not to do for a convention. If the only bond the Bod wishes between the membership and the con is an economic one, then people will choose their preferences as is their likes and dislikes. My point in this post is that rather than all this Sturm Und Drang over the location, simply go to where you wish, only wherever you go, cease complaining and make your choice better.

It might be time to consolidate the three Hmgs East Conventions into one, or at most two, conventions-cutting effort and costs, but more of both could be invested in improving the remaining one(s). This would also increase attendance at Historicon, if it were the survivor, as it creates a better focus for potential attendees and vendors.

At the same time, it would behoove the organizers to move the convention to a more centralized location, with better access by road for those driving, and by air for those from afar. If the new site had the added advantages of better diversions for spouses, and decent restaurants within driving distance, all the better.

Fredericksburg has already demonstrated it is a poor location by the admitted drop in attendance, which may be attributed to several of the above considerations. In this case, the Hawks are being the perfect Canaries in the mine. Heed the warning!

I have enjoyed Fredericksburg each year, but it is plain to see that the Historicon is not "growing" the hobby and in fact going the other way. Yes there may be a concentration of paid members in that area but the potential pool of gamers and members is further north (assuming that HMGS is NC to Maine). I hope the BOD recognizes this. Also if we have something like 300K in reserves, then great were in the black but really at what cost?

geez…I have to drive through DC traffic twice a year to attend HMGS cons in Lancaster. I do not bitch… Love the F'burg venue!

SFC Retired

Hmmm…I made the 9 plus hour drive to all of the HMGS cons for well over a decade. Never complained or thought the con hated or disregarded those of us who were farther south or west. H-con made its move during the recession and all cons have seen a drop in attendance due to economic downturns. As to the whole DC congestion issue there are alternative routes especially given the time suck that driving around DC creates. Take a more scenic route and enjoy the view. As the OFM has rightly stated, H-Con's location is settled. Choose to attend or not but stop bitching about the thing. You want to make Cold Wars the go to con then offer to run games, volunteer to help with registration or simply just take your custom only to that convention. Let the market forces decide.

The problem with hitting DC in the off hours coming from the north is also hitting philly or NYC in the off hours. It make a day trip impossible. Even a single overnight is not worth it since you have to leave early in the AM (3 or so) or resign yourself to getting in at 1 or 2pm

Yeah, after about 12 years of attending all three HMGS, Inc. cons, Historicon in F-burg is off the table for me. Lancaster is close enough for me to drive back and forth each day but I usually get a room for the weekend for both CW and F-I!. Due to schedule conflict, I missed CW this year but heard the weather hit it pretty hard anyway. As to date change for CW, they'll just have to watch the floating Easter date for early April. Otherwise, I think that is a good idea.

H-con made its move during the recession and all cons have seen a drop in attendance due to economic downturns.

I'm not sure that is accurate.

Let the market forces decide.

Isn't that what the declining attendance is telling us?

As Bowman said, not all HMGS (East) conventions have suffered a decline in attendance.

Fall In has grown over the past five years from the 1500 range to around 1900 at last report. Moving from dates in October to November, plus the move of Historicon, have helped to improve attendance at Fall In. Some vendors have reported that it is their most profitable convention.

Despite some weather issues, attendance at Cold Wars has remained roughly the same at over 2000 to 2250.

On the other hand, attendance at Historicon when it was in PA (Lancaster and Valley Forge) reached a high water mark in the 3500 range. If I recall correctly, the most recent number for attendance in VA, as stated by the BOD at the last membership meeting at Cold Wars 2015, was in the 2500 range. (2458 comes to mind if I remember correctly. If I'm way off, I'm sure someone will correct me.) Attendance figures are always subject to revision for duplicate badges, cancellations and other reasons.

The above numbers are from the past reports of the respective convention directors or members of the BOD (or both).

The economy is the same for all three conventions.

You can draw your own conclusions.

If you have questions or comments and are a member of HMGS, there should be a membership meeting at Historicon.

Hope to see you there.

What if we swapped Historicon for Cold Wars? The South gets a major Con, and nobody has a problem with snow at the Con. The NE gets the summer, better weather Con. Just an idea.

I wonder if the attendance at HCon would go up? I do worry that the Cold Wars attendance would drop because those traveling from the NE would have to travel through the nasty weather anyway and still fight DC.

FWIW I am attending HCon this year and have attended the first two at FECC. I have been spotty at Cold Wars and Fall In but am a regular to HCon, unless I have a family obligation, which has happened but only a few times, and I do date back to the last Penn Harris Con.

If the HAWKs stop attending HCon in Fredericksburg, I may have to reconsider and start attending Cold Wars instead, as they are a pretty big supplier of games. As a teacher, I have a unique and lucky situation, I am off for the summer so the drive to Fredericksburg has not deterred me, and Cold Wars and Fall In are at inconvient times of the year, but I do have a couple of personal days I may be able to use to attend Cold Wars instead as long as it is not during standarized testing days.

My club and I have only been attending Cold Wars and Fall-In since Historicon's move to Fredericksburg. The first year, a friend and I made the trip south, but the best Historicon could get out of me was a "meh." Now, we may be somewhat biased…our club is all centered around Harrisburg, Pa…so Lancaster is about 30 minutes. So despite any weather issues, we'll always be at Cold wars and Fall In running games.

On the other hand, we occasionally get the bug to travel. New places w/ lots of breweries are always the deciding factor…which rules out Fredericksburg every time. So, if/when we decide to venture out of our central PA hovels, New Jersey, Maine, Ohio, Tennessee (and even Williamsburg, VA) are all on the list of places w/ Cons that are potential candidates.

T34, let me urge Williamsburg. Theirs' is a small con, maybe 200 attendees and 10 vendors, but it is a relaxed fun time. Maybe I am nuts, but I will drive 4 hours to Williamsburg, while I am on the fence about driving 3 hours to Fredericksburg. (Of course MapQuest says it should only be 2)

47Ronin: "Despite some weather issues, attendance at Cold Wars has remained roughly the same at over 2000 to 2250."

If numbers were the same as previous years, one wonders if having more amenable weather would have seen a jump in Cold Wars 2015 attendance?
While I would agree to moving the Cold Wars date a week or two closer to spring, I would also note that moving it into very late March or into April runs afoul of Easter. While I love my gaming convention, it would take a far backseat to my observance of Easter. Conflicts with Easter would take out a fair proportion of family involvement, I would venture to say.

I think paid attendance might have been the same at Cold Wars.

I sure didn't see 2250 people there though. The weather mattered.

Actually the attendance at CW15 was 1693. Previous data
from the last treasurers report
Year Cold Wars
2010 2136
2011 2179
2012 2130
2013 1937
2014 1771
Attendance is badge count. If someone pre reg and buys a badge and does not come it still counts. In the detailed data you can see the drop off in on site and one day attendees for obvious reasons in 2015.

Just wanted to point out that a new high-rise hotel is being built next door to the Host, on the site of the former Japanese steak house. Those who do not like to stay at the Host could stay there and walk over.

47Ronin:

I like your suggestion several posts back about NJCon. I will only come to Historicon on Saturday this year. If you are there, please come by the HAWKs room on Saturday to chat.

Thanks for your kind comments about our club and our games. I specifically didn't mention the HAWKs my original post, because I was not trying to state a corporate position, just what I am seeing from my foxhole.

Buck

Dear Kayjay,

Thanks for the update. I stand corrected. Like I said above, if someone had more accurate attendance numbers, I knew they would come along. (In fairness, the CW 2015 figures were not available at the membership meeting during the convention. This may be the first time the 1693 number has been disclosed to a wider audience.) The HMGS treasurer does a crack job with his reports in particular and organization finances in general.

Nice to have you back here on TMP, even if only for the occasional comment to correct the less informed (like me). I know how hard it can be sometimes to wade through much of what is posted here, but your comments are always appreciated, at least by some of us.

So much for the good news. Once again, correct me if I am wrong, but according to those numbers Cold Wars attendance is now at (or below) that of Fall In for the past two years. Not exactly a positive trend.

Dear Col. Buck,

I always visit the HAWKS room to see what games you and your fellow GMs are hosting. Your club's efforts are an inspiration to us all. I'll look for you on Saturday and try to bring along one of the NJCON organizers. You guys can take it from there. Until then, you can look up NJCON on line to find directions to their location (NJ Expo Center) and see pictures of past games. The HAWKS would be a welcome addition. I'm sure some of us would love to return the favor at Barrage.

Hope to see you soon.

Dear Snurl1

It will be a Fairfield Inn, and it won't be that high. Nor will it be3 "luxurious enough" for the people who get their hotel rooms for free.

Thanks for the attendance numbers for Cold Wars KayJay; looks like that convention is tumbling downward numberswise as well.

Funny, it's still in the paradise known as the Host in the garden spot of Lancaster; so what's the problem then?

If there are those who are going to windbag on and on about Fredericksburg and how their 4,675 wargaming friends and their Yacktebey wargamers club members refuse to go, then what's the story with Cold Wars?

This past year was a disaster weatherwise, I literally took my life in my hands driving down 81 and onto route 30 to get there this year. Had I known the roads were going to be that bad and they plow the Host parking lot with a spoon, I would have cancelled out of the trip and by the looks of things, a lot of dealers and gamers did just that and I can't say that I blame them.

If HMGS were smart, they'd move the convention to the third or last weekend of March to take the weather out of the mix……………….

Barrage is definitely a fun day. I do have to wonder at the wisdom of have a late winter / early spring convention in the Northeast. It would seem to me that a Fall convention in the NE would make more sense. Cold wars in the South and Historicon somewhere in between. Just my opinion.

Fall In at Gettysburg was great but the Ike makes the Host look like a 5-Star Resort with the added charm of actively not working with HMGS to make anything better (he said remembering cat shows and worse food options than Andersonville).

Cold Wars is my absolute favorite but I certainly agree that fudging a week or two towards the middle/end of the month is reasonable and prudent.

Historicon in Fredericksburg is hours closer but my least favorite perhaps simply due to fond yet fuzzy memories of past Valley Forge or Lancaster moments in which I forget some, I'm sure, equally downside issues.

One thing I fear that is being overlooked is that the number of venues that can a) accommodate us with rooms and venue/exhibit space b) at a time we want and c) at a price we can tolerate for the bulk of members, may be limited in the extreme.

We may be a fairly lousy attraction to many facilities and locales, in particular in the summer, when travelers, weddings, craft shows or whatever can generate more money with less jumping through hoops to meet needs.

The Ike; good Lord, what a dump.

I attend a toy soldier show there in April and there is a dog show there at the same time, dogs everywhere. Not to mention one of the show organizers tries to get vendors to stay at the Ike, not sure if he gets a commission per room, but I told him last year and this year thanks but no thanks.

His wife was droning on two years ago at how nice the Ike is; she was droning on this year about the bed bugs they found in their room.

Yup, a total dump…………………….

To be fair to both CW and FI, HMGS leadership has been negotiating for less than stellar con dates. Why can't CW be a week or two later? IN that past it went as late as April. Any why on earth aren't the out years for FI aligning with Veterans's Day? If you look at the upcoming years, it's almost like the HMGS BOD is doing all it can to avoid having that con on a three day weekend.

CD hit one of the main problems on the nose – HMGS does nothing to attract and keep GMs.

history gamer: Veterans Day is observed on 11 November and is not a floating Monday federal holiday (unless it falls on a weekend day in which case it will be on either the Friday or Monday). So aligning the con with that holiday would just over half of the cons would actually give you a three day weekend I suppose if a three day weekend is that important to some over half is better than nothing. I am merely pointing out that aligning with Veterans Day does not guarantee that the con will fall on a three day weekend.

T34, let me urge Williamsburg. Theirs' is a small con, maybe 200 attendees and 10 vendors, but it is a relaxed fun time. Maybe I am nuts, but I will drive 4 hours to Williamsburg, while I am on the fence about driving 3 hours to Fredericksburg. (Of course MapQuest says it should only be 2)

Our summer convention, Guns of August will take place August 21-23. See link provided.

hamptonroadsgamers.org

In 2016 the holiday is a Friday, Nov 11th, but I believe FI is scheduled for the weekend before, because… ????

…the following year – 2017 – it goes to a Saturday, with Friday likely the observed federal holiday…

…in 2018 it is a Sunday (Monday holiday)…

…2019 it's on a Monday….

For those that get that holiday off, this is huge and would likely help attendance and increase stay time at the con.

For some reason, HMGS seems to avoid aligning with those dates. Perhaps a nice Xmas gift for the BOD would be a calendar book that shows the out-years and holidays.

Or, it could be that the Host is bloking those dates out on us (along with better CW dates) as they don't view it in their interest to have us then – which if the case, is even more reason to find another place to go.