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"Dispersion of Corps and Divisions" Topic


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Last Hussar29 Jun 2015 3:27 p.m. PST

I'm looking at a 'Gettysburg type' scenario – I've posted elsewhere about doing the actual battle as a lot of interlinked scenarios.

If I go the other route – fictionalised but based on – with Corps/Divisions manoeuvring to find then pin the enemy, what sort of dispersion should there be? How should this be enforced (ie what penalty for getting too many divisions too close) – I want to stop the ANV stand in from just moving as a blob.

OCEdwards29 Jun 2015 3:36 p.m. PST

You'd need to make operational groups for the ANV…here's a starter for ten to get the ideas bubbling:

AP Hill: Heth and Pender and 1/2 III Corps Reserve
Ewell: Rodes and Early and II Corps Reserve
Trimble: Anderson and (Cavalry) Hampton and 1/2 III Corps Reserve
Longstreet: Hood and McLaws and 1/2 I Corps Reserve
Stuart: Johnson and (Cavalry) Jenkins and Fitz Lee and Horse Artillery
Lee: Pickett and (Cavalry) Chambliss and 1/2 I Corps Reserve

TKindred Supporting Member of TMP29 Jun 2015 4:47 p.m. PST

I would offer that it's not so much operational groups, but operational areas that you need to concern yourself with.

Here's something else: The logistics of an army on the march. For all the discussion about tactics, frontages, etc, the REAL wrk was done in actually getting the troops where they needed to be in a timely and organized manner.

Both sides used almost identical methods. You had to take a look at the available road network, where your various Corps were located, the size of the trains, both Corps and Army, available water supplies along the route (and foarage for the animals). All of this was, of course, predicated upon where you wanted to get to.

Although a Corps could, in fact, cover 30-35 miles a day, you couldn't keep up that pace. You lost unit coherency due to the immense number of stragglers, animals couldn't keep up that pace pulling artillery and wagons, and any cavalry that did that speed would be useless for anything else.

The Army considered 10 miles a day to be best speed, bumping that up to 20 miles/day for short periods (3-4 days max) and anything above that for in extremis situations only.

So once you had your intelligence reports in, and sorted/sifted and outlined, then the Commanding General and his staff could consider the next day's objectives, then look at the best way to get there. Napoleon developed the model of marching across country with each corps between 1/2 and 1 day's march apart, thus able to support each other. They marched in a diamond shape, with one corps in advance, one corps and army HQ in the middle, one corps to each flank, and one bringing up the rear. In this manner, no matter which corps made contact, at least three more would be able to turn and/or maneuver into support, with the furthest becoming the reserves.

In addition, each day's march saw a different division in the lead of each corps, with the brigades and battalions also taking turns in the lead of their respective organizations. That way, units tok turns in the lead, rather than at the tail eating dust all day. It also allowed those men in the read Divisions, etc, take a little extra rest while the other units marched by.

Plus, you had to send not only scouts ahead to recon the route of march for the enemy, but also engineer officers, QM, etc, to search out suitable bivouac areas, water supplies, pasture/forage/grazing areas for artillery teams, cavalry and supply trains, etc. THOSE guys were up early and left well before the rest of the troops were up and on the march.

Lots of stuff that most gamers don't want to have to deal with, but consider that a single army corps, with it's supporting trains, ambulances, division hospitals, etc, could easily take up 20 miles of roadway if in a single column, at normal intervals. So when considering running an entire 3-day battle like Gettysburg, road networks, water supplies, parks for the various trains, etc, all play an important part in how things develop and unfold.

To my mind, it not how well they performed that amazes me, but that they were able to do it at all.

Last Hussar30 Jun 2015 3:19 p.m. PST

What I'm really after is what we would call "stacking limit". You want your divisions close enough that they could march to support, but they couldn't get too close because of physical room etc. I know that there was a cavalt RAID (? divisional?) that had a 17 mile baggage train!

What I want to stop is one side (probably Rebs) just bunching up and punching through, while the Yanks are spread out looking for them. At Gettysburg messages had to be sent and responded to, the other divisions weren't 'just round the corner'.

John the Greater01 Jul 2015 6:38 a.m. PST

I think TKindred has given the model to keep units from bunching up. If you assume a Corps takes up 20 miles of road you can have them strung out over 20 miles or have them take multiple roads equaling 20 miles. I think a quick look at the network in southern Pennsylvania will tell you that the armies quickly get spread out.

donlowry01 Jul 2015 1:44 p.m. PST

You have to consider that even a single division takes up a lot of road space -- so there is definitely a limit to how many of them can move along a given road in a given time period. Whenever fairly close to the enemy, corps and divisions would need to be within "supporting" distance -- i.e. close enough to each other for one to come to the aid of another within a reasonable time (say 1 day or less).

Last Hussar02 Jul 2015 1:12 p.m. PST

Sorry TK – I appear to have skipped a paragraph when reading!

I think I will do a point to point map, 5 miles between points. Each division will have an arrow – the tip where it is heading, the tail down the road (so a 5 mile arrow). Half a day between points. Force march for 4 points a day for max of 2 days.

This fits well with BP and TCHAE, which has the player as the Divisional commander.

Each point will have various codes attached to it to allow table generation. I'll use these to generate a theoretical table of maybe 24 x 12 – 4x6ft by 3x4ft, the initial contact (ie the Bufords Cavalry bit) happening about on the 4 ft line. We can frame each sub battle as needed on the master table

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