"SYW Prussian Garde du Corps vexillum question" Topic

Hi guys, I wonder if one of you can help me out with a question about an odd flag.

Firstly, I have a very good image of the obverse (front) of the vexillum. I also know what the white, eagle topped tournament lance flag pole looked like. I got this from Kronoskaf. I'm going to fashion the pole from wire, fine chain and a Napoleonic French eagle (by Front Rank Mini's). I'll hand paint the vexillum in my usual manner.

My question is about the reverse (back) of the vexillum. Was this the same as the obverse, a mirror of the obverse (like infantry standards), or was it just plain?

Here's (feeling lazy) hoping the latter…..

James

Hi James,

I too would be very interested in any details your search can come up with. Cavalry standards were embroidered, not painted. The various details were made separately, often incorporating gold and silver thread. These very chunky items were then sown onto a plain sheet. The flags were made by two such sheets sown back to back (I assume this was because of the impossibility of sowing two of these chunks back to back on the same sheet without tearing it to shreds. This two sheet practice would tend to imply to me that the vexillum was indeed two sided. It would be strange indeed if the standard of the premier cavalry unit had a blank back with thread hanging out. Bearing in mind that the standard is hanging free and equally visible from the back I think you may have to steel yourself to painting both sides! I await input from someone more knowledgable. Perhaps Dal Gavan knows?

Mollinary

G'day, James.

There's not too much that is definitely known about this flag, unfortunately. For whatever reason the original was never painted/drawn and contemporary descriptions are contradictory.

But to your question… Nobody can really be sure, but it's probable that you wouldn't see the "shadow" of the design on the back of the vexillum.

Reasons: As Mollinary notes the flag was, as were all Kürassiere and Dragoon regiment flags, embroidered rather than painted (as were the infantry's). The main cloth was either white silk or (less likely, according to contemporary descriptions) drap d'Argent.

The embroidered design was done with gold and silver wire (heavy) and silk thread, as noted above. The silk, by itself, would have to be very thick (most likely multiple layers rather than a thick cloth) to support the weight of the embroidery. More likely the usual method was used and a layer of linen was inserted under the silk, to be able to support the embroidered designs. The linen would provide both strength and also opacity for the flag colours to be easily seen. This would prevent the design showing on the back of this flag- they'd be unlikely to embroider the reverse side as it was not meant to be seen and the linen layer would stop a shadow of the design showing.

If the flag was embroidered only on silk, without the layer of linen, then the design probably would show through on the back. It would also mean the flag was inherently weaker, with the silk more prone to tearing just from the weight of the embroidery. That may explain the short life of the vexillum and why new flags were presented in 1798.

Personally I believe that the usual methods were used and therefore linen was used to back the silk, so no shadow on the back of the flag.

Cheers.

Dal.

Thanks guys.

My personal thoughts, as this was a 'Roman style' vexillum, rather than a 'flag', it would be plain on the reverse, a layer of lining fronted (at the back, if you get me) with plain silk. The pole would block LOS to any design on the reverse, so why bother.

As no images exist, I think that is the way I'll go.

For those looking at this thread without prior knowledge the obverse of the vexillum looked like this (from Kronoskaf).
link

Make sure that you use the SYW era design of the vexillum and eagle and not the post-SYW version. I forget what the differences are, but I know that they are there.

Olicana,

The Kronoskaf illustration you show is differs in a number of details from the illustration contained on page 77 of Fiebig's study "Unsterbliche Treue.
The Fiebig's illustration shows the crossbar attached to a ring in the Eagles beak, not by a chain, but by a cord with tassels at both free ends. There are five rings attached to the cross bar, not six, and the flag itself does not hang straight along the bar but dips between each of the rings. The embroidered eagle is completely different, with its tail to the left and flying towards an embroidered sun on the right, just below the motto band. The foliage is much thicker, and the crown is taller reaching to the fringing. The four corner medallions occupy all the space between the corner of the flag and the central foliage, and two of the FR monograms are reversed, those in the bottom right and top left hand corners. With the free method of attachment to a single point, the vexillum itself would swing in all directions, and I still think it likely that it's reverse side was embroidered in the same fashion as its obverse. But, who Knows! I don't know if anyone more technically competent than I can scan the Fiebig picture in? Dal?

Mollinary, formerly Gablenz.

Another thought, maybe of no relevance at all. The only other example of Vexilla in a "modern" army of which I have details, regarding the question of whether they were two sided or one, were carried by the Wurttemberg cavalry regiments in the second half of the 19th century. These flags were certainly two sided, as the reverse carried the King's cypher, as opposed to his coat of arms carried on the obverse. I believe the Hessian Guard du Corps may have carried a vexillum in the 18th century, does anyone know of its details?

Mollinary

DAF,

Make sure that you use the SYW era design of the vexillum and eagle and not the post-SYW version. I forget what the differences are, but I know that they are there.

A while ago there was a discussion (not sure where and I couldn't find it again) and someone mentioned that the new design (coloured backgrounds to the corner medallions- the system used on the new standards issued in 1798) was used for the two squadrons that didn't originally receive vexilla. Others sources say they never got any flags until the 1798 issue and the differing design details are different artist's impressions.

Until somebody finds a contemporary portrait or other artwork, we can never be sure. In some ways that's good- nobody can say the flag is wrong. :-).

What's your impression? You've looked at this subject closely, I believe?

Olicana,

My personal thoughts, as this was a 'Roman style' vexillum, rather than a 'flag', it would be plain on the reverse, a layer of lining fronted (at the back, if you get me) with plain silk. The pole would block LOS to any design on the reverse, so why bother.

Having the monogram on the reverse is a possibility. The reference mollinary provides may be relevant if the W's had copied the vexillum idea from Fred. But without the original flag (taken by the French when they cleaned out the Zeughaus in Berlin in 1806 and subsequently burned, with most of the other trophies they held, in 1814 as the Coalition forces closed on Paris) or a contemporary painting/sketch/detailed description, who can know?

A monogram on the back would not look out of place, though. :-)

Mollinary, I only have an incomplete photocopy of Fiebig (it was complete, but various moves, etc..) and I can't find the illustration. If I can find a job that will change as there's several copies available on the web, but it's not quite doable on an army pension (and there's so many temptations when you're saving!). Fiebig may have followed Menzel, from memory. Below is the illustration from Bleckwenn (Die friderizianisches Uniformen: Band III Berittene Truppen). Another, different method of mounting the flag and also detail differences on the design.

If HKW, Stephen Summerfield or Oli Schmidt chime in then they can tell us how much argument has been sparked by those discussing the design of the vexilla, I'd say.

Cheers.

Dal.

Hi Dal,

I have emailed you (I think!) with a photo of Fiebig's illustration. Perhaps you can post it up here? The one problem with Fiebig is he doesn't cite his sources!
The monogram point was only to indicate that the Wurttembergers did put a design on the back, in spite of their Vexilla having the same problems as Frederick's would have. In fact the design of the Wurttemberg Vexilla was the same as their infantry flags, on both sides.

Mollinary

The embroidered eagle is completely different, with its tail to the left and flying towards an embroidered sun on the right, just below the motto band.

Having thought on it, this is a very interesting point.

If the vexillum was, instead, a flag, and the view in the above images is called the 'obverse', then it goes against the standard formula of Prussian standards. If it were a flag, and this was the obverse view, the flag pole would be on the left and on all other Prussian flags the eagle flies away from the pole.

I remember, when I did my first hand painted Prussian flag I inadvertently drew the eagle facing in the wrong direction (towards the pole) because that seemed, in my mind's eye, correct. I changed it of course but, hmmm, that is food for thought.

As requested, Mollinary, here's the illustration from Fiebig. I was wrong- it ain't based on Menzel at all! It reminds me of the illustrations in the Darmstadt Pattern Book, just by the way the eagles are drawn.

Email to follow shortly, mate- got some errands to run first.

Olicana, in Alt (Geschichte der Königl. Preußischen Kürassiere und Dragoner 1619-1870, published Berlin 1870- I have a 1970 reprint) the eagles are described as "links fliegendem adler", presumably because that's the way their heads are turned. (Side note- I've sometimes wondered what that style of eagle was running from!). BTW, Alt isn't the most reliable source (he gives the LS of KR Nr 9 as having rose-pink centres, for example, and may have started the myth about pink dragoon flags), but he at least had access to surviving relics. He's another who describes the cloth of the vexillum as drap d'Argent.

Cheers.

Dal.