"Horse charging a pike block" Topic

Recently, TMPers were discussing at the medieval boards whether a trained band of horsemen could charge a non-broken pike block or not ( TMP link ). Do you guys here know Amy example of successful cavalry frontal charges against pike blocks during the 1500s/1600s?

It depends on how you qualify a "successful frontal charge"? We have examples of cavalry charging repeatedly_through_pike blocks but since the pike did not break and run do those qualify as "successfull"?

French cavalry repeatedly drove away swiss pike at the battle of Marignano. These pike formations were however not static defense formations, but charging pike blocks. One can imagine that they were less solidly formed up because of this.

But it was rare, proven by the fact that a less "confrontational" cavalry tactic like the caracole was usually preferred. Eventually, pike blocks became obsolete against the increasing firepower of cannon ands musket. Against horse, they usually reigned supreme.

There was some discussion here link

The effect in the ECW seems to be to freeze the foot … without cavalry support, they can't move in the face of enemy horse (they have to defend or surrender).

Rupert's correspondence post Naseby seems to confirm that this is why horse were interspersed with the foot in the reserve lines.

Without horse, foot are left without hope, like the men on broadmoor or isolated like Rupert's Blewcoats, only to be shot to bits as they cannot move unsupported.

I'm sceptical of any frontal charges on formed foot.

Phil
ECWBattles

I'm sceptical of any frontal charges on formed foot.

Sceptical to wether they took place or sceptical to their ability to succeed?

The effect in the ECW seems to be to freeze the foot … without cavalry support, they can't move in the face of enemy horse (they have to defend or surrender).

Rupert's correspondence post Naseby seems to confirm that this is why horse were interspersed with the foot in the reserve lines.

Without horse, foot are left without hope, like the men on broadmoor or isolated like Rupert's Blewcoats, only to be shot to bits as they cannot move unsupported.

Interesting, that would indicated that ECW infantry lacked some of the abilities possesed by TYW infantry for much of the war as TYW infantry was repeatedly able to move and even make a contested fighting withdrawal in the face of cavalry as long as morale held out. "Freezing" the infantry usually required the presence of infantry or musketeers supporting the cavalry.

There are a number of well recorded charges into and even through pike blocks. At Dreux Huguenot Gendarmes charged through the extended Swiss formation, at Ceresole 1544 Enghien's Gendarmes charged through the German-Spanish square several times though with considerable loss. At Turnhout 1597 the Dutch cavalry charged and broke the Spanish Escaudrons of foot with a rapid and violent charge. In the battle of Kircholm 1605 some of the Lithuanian hussars charged directly into the Swedish battalions with considerable loss on both sides but the Swedes remained unbroken but shaken.

I have no doubt there were differences between ECW and TYW capabilities (that is why I restricted my comments to the war where I know the sources pretty well).

Phil

Thank you, guys! But what about the often repeated saying that horses "would not run towards pikes/Spears/stakes/pointed things"? Would training be able to overcome the animal instincts?

I'm with Yesthatphil on this one. Troop quality in the ECW was probably lower than that in the TYW (at least until the closing stages). The ability to withstand a cavalry charge is as much about morale and training as anything else. Also remember that for every horse there are two or three infantry across the same frontage. So if a "regiment" of 360 horse deployed in three ranks charges a regiment of 600 foot deployed in 6 ranks the frontages would be similar. However, if the foot don't break and reserve their fire until short range (lets say 25 paces) they are throwing a lot more lead at the cavalry than the cavalry can throw back from their pistols. Plus 25 paces is not the optimal range to be firing a pistol from. I can see how smart cavalry officers might not want to risk charging well drilled steady foot frontally.