"Are fans too touchy about criticism?" Topic

I have noticed that some products are bullet proof. They are beyond reproach and no criticism is allowed.

A prime example is the pre printed 4 x 5 mats put out by a new company. I played on one at Cold Wars. They are pretty. However I commented on TMP in one thread that they were not perfect. In some (most) battles the pre printed terrain did not match the battle I wanted to put on. The fanboyz turned on me. How dare I critics such works of art! The best comment was that I should adjust my scenario to match the map!

Another more recent poster noted that while they were indeed pretty (and no one can deny that!) some might find the printed logo off putting. Again, how dare he?!?!? Cover it with a tree! Fold it over! Let it hang over the edge!
Ummmm people…. Should the Lionel logo appear on all rolling stock, prominently displayed?
Should the Hinchliffe logo be cast into the shako or bearskin of all figures?
Should WF for Wargames Foundry be cast into all backpacks?

So, why are some products immune to criticism?
If I am telling a company why I will not be buying something that is actually rather nice, shouldn't they pay attention to such feedback?

So, why are some products immune to criticism?

I think you need to shift your focus from the products to the fanboys. Most products have fanboys, and everyone can be like that a little, but not usually in a sustained way. I think as the product line hangs around for a while, you will find fewer and fewer people who react like that. But there will probably always be one. And he will be next to you at the con. And he didn't shower.

If I am telling a company why I will not be buying something that is actually rather nice, shouldn't they pay attention to such feedback?

As a game company employee (SWMBO owns INLGames), I say a resounding, "Yep!" Then it's up to the company to decide what to do with the feedback.

Same with lots of fanboys, certain products seem to attract more extreme views who cannot abide criticism e.g. Flames of War and Apple!

All products have their fanatics. If you don't like this rule set or that rule set their fans will declare a jihad and hound you for the rest of your life.

Yes some products have overly vocal fanboys and you are not allowed to criticize .

As for the Matt's I have commented on this issue before. I don't want some logo staring me in the face.

Xin

fan is a contraction of fanatic, so yea. In other news, sky is blue, water is wet.

-Will

"If I am telling a company why I will not be buying something that is actually rather nice, shouldn't they pay attention to such feedback?"

They should, but it is amazing how many don't and treat feedback as a personal attack.

Even people who specifically ask for feedback, and throw a hissy fit when they actually get some.

I think it is more that some brand names are treated as gods, or conversely demonized. All rational thought is suspended when 'Acme Wargaming Sundries and Guides' is mentioned.

If you don't like this rule set or that rule set their fans will declare a jihad and hound you for the rest of your life

Since most gamers are Geeks to one degree or another, I think that is what causes the issue. A Geek trait is "intense devotion to the subject of their interest." So if that interest is Flames of War, fake lighsabers, etc. and you criticise this; it's like saying something about their mother. As we say on TMP: "don't criticise the precious"

Connect this with a general social awkwardness and the fanboi receives a certain amount of self-esteem from belonging to the included group: FoW players, 40K tournament players, etc. When you cast dispersions on their choices you are essentially destroying something that is building self-esteem and the natural tendency is to defend it.

This leads to some individuals having intense devotion to something that helps build self-esteem so it is understandable to see why people can be defensive. It would be better if this individuals could say, "Hey, I like Flames of War, if you don't go yourself."

The thing is no one makes anyone buy a specific wargames product. We all like what we like and sometimes say so. Mostly its no harm done.

Now and then someone acts up if their view does not prevail but I've noticed that with the critics too….

I like Piquet FOB many folk really don't like it. That's OK and all same to me.

How dare you! You deserve to die for criticising the game I play with toy soldiers. You heathen, you!

I like Liverpool FC and would compare them to 28mm Post Apoc using Combatzone rules.my favourite team.
Arsenal are good to watch , they are 15 mm WW2 using Flames of war.
Man Utd are GW 40K everybody seems to hate them but they have a massive fan base already.
Chelsea Are GW fantasy same as United .
Mantic City are the new team and getting better with each new season.
Everton are napoleaonics .
That's one angle on things especially comparing products and systems with sports teams and their fans.
Not sure on infinity being Barcelona or Real Madrid . Ganesha games are Juventus .
Can we have aN NFL league of firms too? I love Reaper minis but geography fails me a little and I am not sure whether Houston or Dallas would suit them best as a fan?

Dallas would best suit Reaper. They are just north of there.

I have noticed on TMP that many people offer their praise privately and their criticism publicly. I try to do just the opposite. It has a much better result. This is a practice to which I adhere in personal and business life alike. Try it and you may be surprised by the results.

B

@Winston Smith,
Are you sure you're not being overly sensitive? I know how shy and retiring you are, not like that verbose John the OFM!
:^)

+1 Bill

I guess you know how you sound now when someone makes a comment about FOW.

They are just games.

Enjoy and move on.

Who cares what others think as long as you are having fun.

Welcome to consumer culture.

We base our self-worth on the products we purchase and equate any praise or criticism of the product with praise or criticism of our own personalities.

Mr. Elmo, it's not just geeks. Try going to a concert for the latest pop idol and saying loudly "This stinks." But only if you really want a trip to the emergency room.

Always turn off the fan before touching the blades. Otherwise your fingers will get a good smacking.

In recognition of the impossibility for mere mortals of achieving perfection Persian game mats are made with a deliberate flaw.

Depends on the product. Some fanboys have thinner skins than other. FoW seems to have theirs made from tissue paper.

It's not limited to wargamers. Bounce on over to a Cardinals blog, and you won't have to go so far into the comments to see somebody claiming that the Astros deserved to be hacked.*

There is no such thing as Peak Derp.

*Apologies to the Brits who have no clue what I'm talking about.

People will invest emotionally in something, a sports team, a TV series, a product, etc. They like it, they love it, they identify with it and anyone that comes around "to burst their bubble" is going to get bitten …

Wait! . . . wait! . . .

Are you saying that a person or persons with actual experience of the product you were criticizing (but hadn't actually used in any of your games) had the unmitigated gall to suggest that you may have been mistaken?!?!

Why, this is an outrage!!!!!

Great idea for a thread!!! 👍

Rabidly irrational fans are a company's worst enemies.

As Winston pointed out, they can alienate potential players (customers!) with their irrational refusal to accept reasoned criticism of their favorite rules.

And they blind designers to potential problems with their products.

Some criticisms are matters of taste and a company may or may not incorporate them into a product based on their target market. For example, our Age of Madness product abstracts vehicle armor values into broad front, side, and deck values since our target market is focused on speed of play and creativity rather than the armor thickness of each and every point on a tank. It is an accurate criticism that Age of Madness lacks detailed hit location rules. Whether or not a gamer likes that approach is up to him and I can't imagine berating someone for not liking our approach.

Other criticisms are very helpful. Identifying a typo or error or logic problem in a game can only make it better. Those who offer such criticisms are a designer's best friend. Sometimes such criticisms sting ("darn, how did I miss that!") but you're better of making the change instead of ignoring the problem.

Finally, the only criticism that one can safely ignore is "these rules are terrible" with no detailed reasoning. In the absence of such rationale there's nothing a designer can act on. If someone doesn't like something we produce I always ask why and then make a judgement call. If it's a real error or definite improvement that we can make (even if we don't like it ourselves!) then we make the change if it improves the product for most of our customers. If it's purely a matter of taste and would divert us from our design goals too much then there's nothing we can do.

Rabid fans and irrational haters destroy one of my favorite aspects of gaming: discussing the pros and cons of different game design approaches.

I like your philosophy ACWBill.

Cheers,
Aaron

Bounce on over to a Cardinals blog…

There's a special blog just for higher ranking priests… ? Does the pope know?

Apologies to the Brits who have no clue what I'm talking about.

Ahhh – back up to speed. Forget everything I said…

John T

Welcome to consumer culture.

We base our self-worth on the products we purchase and equate any praise or criticism of the product with praise or criticism of our own personalities.

Could be. In our case (wargaming), there is also a significant investment in time (as opposed to, say, owning a Lamborghini and having a mechanic take care of it and someone else wash, clean, and fuel it) which is a different and IMHO more valueable commodity, and thus represents a more important and personal value judgement about investment.

I don't think it's a bad thing if you judge yourself by what you spend your time doing. 'Course I agree that a viscreal reaction to criticism is probably rooted more in your insecurity about your decision than your righteous desire to defend your choice.

Time … you must spend it, but you can't save it or earn it.

This is why duels should be legal. One way or another arguments end, and less people in the world to start new ones.

Winston, you're being a provocative victim. You claimed that you were "shouted down" because someone disagreed with your opinion. Now you've started a thread in which to whine about it.

I merely stated that if someone doesn't like the logo, they shouldn't buy the product. It isn't necessary to post over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that someone doesn't like the logo, or the scale, or the rules, or the marketing. Its annoying. Its childish. Your use of the term "fanboyz" is a straw man intended to make you appear injured.

Methinks that if this is a serious issue for you, you have no real problems.

Wulfgar, in the interest of accuracy, I have to note that you actually said that complaining about the logo was somehow threatening your ability to buy a mat, which is not true.

You also called some mostly-supportive posts that happen not to like the logo, "negative rants", which they were not.

Finally, the "don't like the logo, don't buy it" statement is a false choice. I LIKE the product and the company. I don't like one particular feature of it – the logo on the front of the mat. I also like my Toyota FJ. I don't like the larger-than-normal blind spots that it has, and I wish that the gas tank held 5 more gallons. But I'd still recommend the vehicle to anyone who asks.

"Are fans too touchy about criticism?"

What !?!? "I'll fight anyone in this bar for a dollar !" , Groucho Marx

Lucius, you're creating another straw man. I said that constant childish criticism of certain products was annoying and that it only discouraged producers.

There is a habit, by certain posters on TMP, of targeting certain products EVERY TIME they have an announcement on TMP. Games Workshop. DBA. Flames of War. You know what I mean.

If I don't like a product, I remain silent out of respect for other people. Other gamers might like the products that I dislike or even despise. However, there are who delight in making the same complaint over and over and over and over and over and over and over as is they are on a crusade. If they don't like that product, no one should even consider it.

Let's get to the heart of the OP's whiney complaint: that certain "fans" or "fanboys" can't bear to see a product they like criticized:

I generally like Cigar Box's product. It looks good on my table and I can do a lot with it. I don't like ALL of their mats. I don't see the point of the crossroads mat. I have no use for their Martian maps because I don't game that. Their city cobblestones mats don't look like cobblestones to me. I like what I've bought. I don;t care about the label. That doesn't make me a "fanboy."

Many people have posted that they like the products I don't care for. Good for them! I'm happy that the products I don't like or need please them. Mature people are able to do that. Mature people don't need to habitually put down things they don't like.

Let's take a page from the OP's book. Why does he feel superior to "fans" of products that he doesn't like? Why does he need to post a special thread about it? Hidden insecurities? An agenda? Too much time on TMP? Sounds a little bit middle school to me.

"Ya know, I really liked that band until they became popular. Now they've just sold out. Anyone who listens to them doesn't know music like I do."

At the end of the day, its a label. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Please don't bore us with the tedious details, EVERY SINGLE TIME, about why you don't like the label.

The problem with other people criticizing or praising products is they believe they are balanced, while I know I am the only person who is balanced and therefore the only person with any valid opinion…..

Feel free to reflect your imagined failings on me that I am somehow jealous/ snide/ immature.

I have never made any comment about Cigar box before.

So I will now say, If you want to play on a bit of lino with a label printed on it, go for it. I dont give one. I would suggest sticking a label on it is a bit pants because….Personally……. I would maybe buy a bit of lino that has hexes printed on it, if it looked like I could use it as a sea mat. If it has writing printed on it, forget it….thats yer whack.