"My God! What sort of people do you game with????" Topic

On another thread it closed with one contributor asking in a theory of simultaneous movement where units diced to see if they could move, how would I answer the problem of cheating.

I got to thinking the title of this thread. In my games virtually all die rolls do not get much more than a casual observance. Players rally off markers simultaneously by themselves, avoid the markers by die rolls etc, and none look at almost at any of them. As umpire I've watched people and they roll the die and obey the diktat arrived with an honesty and equanimity that it impressive.

If EVERY die roll has to be witnessed by the other side then that is going to slow down the game enormously, and, it says that if you have to do that you're dealing with a rather dubious bunch of people.

Occasionally I've detected a little cheating, but mostly it's the sins of omission- a person forgets to roll for this or that, but the effect is so small we usually let it go. Only when it becomes outrageous and egregious is action taken. I don't confront the person, I just don't invite him back after several incidents.

I have a good group of players. I am glad to have them over to play. I have never seen anyone cheat.

Our visible die rolls are part of the entertainment. Much jocularity ensues.

The guys rely on me to figure out the modifiers. I'm trying to train one of the guys to do this so we can have 2 things resolved at the same time.

I agree with John, we don't watch die rolls because we think someone will be cheating, it is part of the suspense.

Only once have we ever suspected a player of cheating. And we were right. They were politely disinvited from future gaming.

There is between 20-30 of us in the group of us that regularly game together. Everyone in the group has been playing together now from between two to seven years and even though most of us are very competitive, we have never had anyone to cheat. It is a great group of people that I game with and we have become spoiled. That is one of the reasons that even if we go to conventions, we usually don't game outside of our group. Highly competitive individuals (but who are NOT rule Nazis) and who never cheat --what more could you ask for from your gaming buddies?

There is one guy who die rolls I want to see; other than him (and I stopped gaming with him years ago), I don't care, other than to watch in suspense to see if someone makes a critical throw.

in some gaming groups, cheating is considered part of the friendly fun

I think those are pretty rare, and if they actually exist they sound simply awful. I would never want to game with those sort of guys.

The only time cheating should be allowed and considered "fun" is if you are playing Steve Jackson's Illuminati game. It is actually part of the rules to cheat and it makes perfect sense in the scope of the game's theme.

The only cheating our group does are honest mistakes regarding the rules. We use dice boxes for rolling and everyone sees them.

We have had instances in our little group where people appear to cheat, we are sure its mostly inadvertant. I would not play with anyone who consciously cheated.

In the group I play with, almost all rolls are "observed". Not so much to curb cheating, but to make sure we are playing the game right. We play a lot of different rules and it's easy for modifiers to get confused or overlooked. Also, it helps players that are unfamiliar with the rules understand what's going on.

VIrtually all the people I get to play with at stores and conventions are eager to demonstrate good sportsmanship in every way. People would rather have a good time than win with acrimony.

But not everyone is so lucky. In reading around the web as well as books and magazines some groups and clubs have a different atmosphere. Some people are stuck playing with people they need to watch or not playing at all. Their opponents are not awful people, and won't fudge things if someone is watching. I wouldn't call them evil, they're not out to hurt anyone, they're just extremely relaxed with their own rule following. So you can play solo, play once a year, or play regularly but put up with this nonsense. I might choose not to put up with the nonsense, but some people choose to pay the price for regular play.

I do recall one instance of cheating like this here locally, but it was one incident, over a decade ago, and the other players in the game caught the move. I had positioned some infantry in front of a mech unit to prevent enemy infantry from closing to base contact. Suddenly enemy infantry were in base contact. I thought I had made an error, so I expressed disappointment that I had let that happen. Then all the other players pointed out that in moving his infantry squad forward the offending player had pushed my infantry out of the way. The "mistake" was corrected and the game went on. Not a bad guy, not malicious, just a little greedy, a little undisciplined.

My regular group is slowly fading into obscurity. Our mover and shaker passed away a while ago and ever since then I have been trying to keep us going, but am not having much of any success. We haven't got together for a couple of months now. A pretty good group of guys though.

I have bordgame friends and roleplay friends of both sexes. As a GM I can tell them to roll then go to the bathroom-no one cheats, they ask if a critical roll applies when I come out. Boardgames, the same-but they don't want to do combat rolls until I'm back.
No one cheats on movement or combat but my people have gamed together since 1985.

These sound words echo in my mind when I set up for battle with gaming buddies. YouTube link

EDIT just kidding they are the salt of the earth. Always willing to waver the odd suspect dice roll and mystic measurements.

The guy I play with cheats on a regular basis but I let it slide seeing as he's the only one around here in the boonies I can play regular games with and he's pretty easygoing on the periods etc, still a fun gaming experience though as it brings a bit of uncertanty to the outcome, oh I have to add I mainly solo at the moment :)
Cheers happy gaming.

I had a friend who cheated incessantly, he figured that because he provided the locale and the snacks he was entitled to. So we started buying our own snacks and playing at someone else's place. We haven't seen him for years. I game for fun and to relax, my real life is challenging enough. True I would rather win than lose but if I lose the sun still comes up in the morning.

I have never understood why people need to cheat. To me winning by a cheat would devalue my victory. There was a member of my wife's family who cheated incessantly at all games, I haven't games with him in years. He not only cheated but would then argue that he was entitled to do so. Even worse he was a bad winner, the sort who even though they won by cheating then goes on to belittle the looser for lack of ability! To be honest life's to short for that stuff!

Same as Forager. Almost all rolls observed but just to make sure we're playing it right.

Also allows for good natured 'Sledging' (…er Trash Talk).

:-)

Most folks I game with roll in the open, but no special care is taken by others to observe the results. I wouldn't enjoy playing with someone I didn't trust.

I overheard this conversation in our local store:

1st guy: "I don't play with that guy, he cheats."

2nd guy: "Everybody cheats. It's your job to catch them."

I was horrified, but not surprised at the attitude.

I've been playing with the same small club (about 10-12 members and 6-8 regulars) for 5 years now. I hadn't thought about this. I think we probably do roll in view of the other player most times, but no one has ever mentioned it.

I've never seen any evidence of cheating. That would really mess with my feeling about the games and the people I think I know and trust. Everyone here usually plays to win, but we're not WAAC kind of people anyway so it's generally a pretty laid back vibe.

Cheating is always allowed…if you are gaming solo. :)

Otherwise, what's the point? Dice are fickle, that's what makes the game interesting. Sometimes the dice bite your plan and sometimes, great dice salvage a bad plan…

You cheat once, we never play again. Non-negotiable.

Amen brother.

When I was younger I had two "friends" who cheated regularly. The first kept his limited to things that could be reasonably explained by 'oops, I made a mistake/got distracted'. We tolerated it because a) he was otherwise a good guy and b) even with his cheating he almost never won.

The second was very blatant. One typical example – we were plying Star Fleet Battles and he found himself in avery bad tactical position. After 5 minutes of scribbling and calculations he announced a 'preplotted' speed change that served to perfectly extricate himself. Our normal response to him was just gang up on him.

I'm a bit more tolerant of cheating, so long as it is not egregious.

The best way I can explain it, is in the cover illustration tot he box which contains the rules for "Oh God! Anything But a Six!" on the 18th Century Napoleonic version, properly called "Mon Dieu! Tout saif un six!" there is a picture of Frederick the great, gesturing with his baton. I have photo shopped in a card from the combat results deck and the caption says "Oh no Mon Cher, I was not cheating, I was simply misinterpreting your reference here." In the other illustration it is David's painting of Napoleon in his study, holding a combat results card in his hand. The caption is "Cheating?… Cheating?? Of course I was cheating, it is a better game when I cheat!"

The former is allowed, the latter is not.

Have only ever known one (1) cheat in the hobby. Finally called on it (doing very fast pick up of small dice and announcing the results), we never saw him again.

I've played for fun for over 50 years. Not willing to suffer a cheater.

Dan

I have played in club games where there were a lot of us cheating. But is it really cheating if everyone knows and plays along. It was a political/miniatures game set in dark ages Britain. Politics and cheating…..sounded normal to most of us.

miniature games, no cheating. Euchre, cribbage, it's a free for all. And as a GM for RPG's I cheat a lot. IF someone has a brilliant idea and a terrible roll I'll let it slide. Other times when someone with the "perfect" character is just being a PITA I'll fudge some dice to put them in their place. I'll roll dice behind a screen, totally ignore the results just to push a story or inflict some immediate justice.

Yea, life's too short to put up with cheaters.

When you want to define cheating within the context of a game or game rules, I think it's missing the point.

Cheating is about the intent of the action, not the content of the action.

Misapplying a rule by accident is not cheating, it's being sloppy or forgetful. Fudging a die roll once or twice is usually also not cheating – it's getting so involved in the game that you really wish for a specific result, and are helping luck a little. When caught in the act, people usually are sportive about it and admit their fault sheepishly – it's like a kid being caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

However, real cheating is when the trust you have in a person is damaged and cannot be repaired. It is a character flaw that most people do not put up with. In a game setting these are the players that consistently manipulate dice, that make deliberate errors when measuring, that deliberately misquote rules to their advantage, etc. Very often, these are players for which the game is more important than the social setting they are operating in. It's an attitude problem, not a problem with the game rules themselves.

The cheating that is problematic is about betraying the trust other people put in you. Once that has happened, it's very difficult to win that trust back.

So, a guy who forgets to hit the clock during a chess game once or twice, that's okay. The guy who replaces one his pieces on the board when you're not looking, is a dirty cheat. I won't play him ever again.

Nearly every time I wargame, I cheat – on my diet. Beer, whiskey, soft drinks, junk food, snacks, huge lunch and dinner portions….. I can't help myself. It's all so yummy!

My scale doesn't trust me.

- Ix

We have a slightly amorphous group, but all good people. We play QILS a lot, so die rolls are simple and visible. We also play by Gentleman's Rules(TM) such as …

"Oh, , just reroll it."

"Meh … close enough, go ahead."

"I have no ing idea. Roll for it? High is yes, low is no."

"OK, that's like four times in a row. The Dice Gods are screwing with us. My guy is dead."

"Dude, don't measure every move. Just follow your point man and be reasonable."

"Hey, I'm going to [insert thing here]. Is that cool?"

"No rule for that. But it makes sense. Do it."

Plus, SWMBO is a constant opponent (or ally) in the games. After 20-odd years, it wouldn't be proper to act like a cad in her presence.

"Fudging a die roll once or twice is usually also not cheating – it's getting so involved in the game that you really wish for a specific result, and are helping luck a little."

Nope. That's cheating, pure and simple. Getting "caught up" is no excuse. Such a person would be encouraged to find their fun elsewhere.

The rules mistakes in a game Otto considers cheating are most certainly NOT.

Occasionally I've detected a little cheating, but mostly it's the sins of omission- a person forgets to roll for this or that, but the effect is so small we usually let it go.

In the other post you said you don't use orders chits anymore because someone cheated by hiding one under a shrubbery. But, you still use unobserved movement die rolls where there is some cheating. Isn't that showing prejudice for one system over the other?

When I solo wargame, I find that my opponent constantly cheats. But I let it slide because he paints my minis… ;-)