"Attn: D Manley - USS Constitution construction details" Topic

Hi David,
Re the query you raised previously, I tripped across this material which I thought might be of interest -

Extensive use of live oak succeeded in making the hull strong and durable. The hull consisted of three layers, outer and inner horizontal layers (planking) of white oak, and a center, vertical layer (frames) of live oak. Live oak is about five times denser than other oak woods, and, at the close of the eighteenth century was only available in the southeastern United States. The live oak for Constitution came from the swampy coastal forests of Georgia. Additionally, the live oak frames were placed only two inches apart, instead of being spaced from four to eight inches, as were the frames of British and French frigates.

This unusually strong hull had an average thickness of twenty-one inches, and was twenty-five inches at the waterline.

To enable the large frigate to carry a main armament of heavy 24ppounders without "hogging" (that is, sagging at the bow and stern) Humphrey introduced a system of diagonal riders. Within each side of the hull, six thick curved timbers ran from the keel to the gun deck, transferring the downward pressure of the cannons' weight to the center, rather than the ends, of the vessel.

Thick beams, shaped roughly like inverted letter Ls and called "standard knees", spaced along the length of the berth deck, transferred the weight of the long guns on the gun deck to the diagonal riders.

"Interpreting Old Ironsides – An Illustrated Guide to USS Constitution"; Charles E Brodine Jr, Michael J Crawford, Christine F Hughes: Naval Historical Center, Department of the Navy Washingto DC, 2007

PDF link – approx 100mb download.

I'm a bit skeptical of the 5x density claim, based upon reading elsewhere, but take this FWIW.

B

i don't think it's 5 times more dense. i think about 40% actually. but it may be 5 times stronger.

i remember watching a show on the discovery channel i think called the real story where each episode tells about the historical background to a different movie and one was about master and commander.

on the show they took a 4x4 white oak board and a 4x4 live oak board and put each one in a press to test the breaking point and the live oak was amazingly stronger. i can't remember the numbers now and i don't want to give inaccurate amounts but it was a couple thousand pounds more if i'm not mistaken.

there's also the story about the battle with a couple british ships and afterwards constitution had several 32 pound cannon balls stuck in the hull that didn't penetrate it.

not sure if your post was in response to a question about the type of wood they used or what but it's no exaggeration that live oak is much stronger than white oak is

As a f/up I recall in Gardiner's frigate book, that the when the British constructors examined USS President after her capture, they pronounced her as overbuilt (which, I assume, refers to the spacing of the frames). Seemed to have worked rather well, considering her sisters careers.

I picked up most of that info recently (I've been chatting with the curators on the ship) but thanks in any case. It was noted that the 32pdr rounds were low velocity carronade rounds – 24pdr long gun rounds were found to be able to penetrate the ships sides without any problems.

Is there a citation in support of the penetration of
USS Constitution's sides by 24-pounder rounds ?

….. It is not unreasonable to infer from the 60-odd casualties suffered by USS President in her action with Endymion (carrying long 24lbrs at that time) that it was possible for the hull of a Constitution class frigate to be holed/penetrated by that caliber of long gun. But what of long 18lbr gunfire? The miniscule casualties suffered by sister ships in other frigate actions where long guns heavier than 18lbr were not present aboard British opponents does appear to raise a question.

On a related line, has anyone ever seen a copy of the British survey of USS President that was purportedly done after her capture? Or, for that matter, what about any American post-action battle damage surveys on any of President's sister ships?

B

Let me also take this opportunity to shamelessly advertise the fact that I will be running some Age of Sail games at both NJCon later this month and at HCon in July, using my very own "Steer to Glory" rules:

> Suffren Throws Down the Gauntlet – Battle of Sadras, first engagement between Suffren and Hughes.

> Saumarez's Challenge – Franco-Spanish vs British action in the Strait of Gibraltar, 1801.

Would love to meet some of you folks face to face.

B

This site tells the mechanical properties of live oak: link

There were links to other species of oak; it looks like the live oak would be about ten or twenty per cent stronger than white oak. It's also about a third again as dense. An interesting fact: the "Janka hardness" (force required to embed an 11.28 mm steel ball to one-half its diameter) is 12,920 N for live oak, but only 5,990 N for white oak. I guess that the Janka test is for pressure resistance rather than impact resistance, but I still found it interesting.

Ron

When I visited the Constitution Museum it was evident from the contemporary documents on display that the hull had been penetrated by 18-pdr shot during the engagements with both Guerriere and Java, and this was confirmed in subsequent discussions with staff in the USN Historical Centre.

Yes, her hull was thick and tough enough to resist 18-pdr cannon shot fired out of effective penetration range, but we should not mistake the "her sides are made of iron" PR spin as indicating she was invulnerable.

It is a long-held habit for the winning side to underplay its damage in publicly released statements, but I understand that Bainbridge wrote a much more candid letter to his prize agent as to the damage actually suffered during his action in her – but I've never found this on-line.

Much ink has been spilled on the question of whether Constitution was ever fitted with the famous diagonal riders at the start of this thread, I thought the jury had come down on probably not, and whether they were installed or not Constitution certainly did "hog" early on in her career.

Finally, DM's comments suggests that someone has allowed him into the continental US to poke around your historic ships. I thought you chaps had Homeland Security ?

Best wishes,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

i would say regardless of the actual numbers, its pretty much a given that 2 feet of nearly solid oak including live oak frames is going to be stronger than a little more than half that thickness of white oak, especially with wider frame spacing.

not only that, but with the added strength came heavier armament. obviously no wooden ship is going to be invincible, but rolling up on a ship like that in a frigate 50 feet shorter with half the firepower would deter me haha

Having stood on the decks of the Constitution and the two surviving 38 gun Leda-class frigates in the UK (Trincomalee and Unicorn) anyone engaging a monster like that deserved a medal.

But as an RN Captain, you weren't meant to be deterred by a bigger opponent !

As Broke (of the Shannon) said "We must capture one of these great American ships with our squadron, to send her home .. that people may see what a great creature it is, and that our frigates have fought well, though unlucky."

Ok, it was less down to luck as to being beaten by a bigger, heavier ship with a well trained crew. The RN was used to beating big French 24-pdrs, but these were constructed significantly more lightly than the British frigates and of course there was the crew quality to consider.

By mentioning the comparative length of the ships you have hit on the one chance a British ship has – all that additional length means that the American ship turns slower, much slower.

If you read the more measured accounts of the battles you will see that Java used this well in the first part of the engagement and took out the wheel and wounded the captain (twice). How would the battle have turned out if the captain had gone down … ?

9 times out of 10 the big US 44 is going to win, but as gamers we can tilt for that 1 in 10 chance !

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

"Finally, DM's comments suggests that someone has allowed him into the continental US to poke around your historic ships. I thought you chaps had Homeland Security ?"

I snuck over there before 9/11 when any old sod could get in with a good excuse :)

well maybe they feel that after 200 odd years theres minimal danger letting the brits see the constitution up close haha. now the intrepid may still be hard to get onto!

but seriously i see what you mean about emglish captains not being deterred. and the stories of the captains that did it are pretty remarkable like hms cyane and levant happening across her. cyane is sailing around and spots a strange ship and runs to it only to see its constitution. imagine youre sailing around on your 6th rate ship and run into that. all i can think is "ohhh dear."

Never mind, we'll get Cyane back when Constitution runs away (again) from yet another British squadron …

and someone might point out the slight technicality that under the Treaty of Ghent we were no longer at war !

Never been to New York, but I did get an invited evening tour of the Midway on business in San Diego. Included dogfighting in a simulator of linked Phantom cockpits – great fun but a bit off-topic for this Forum !

Mark B.

I would think the penetration issue is interesting but somewhat semantic. You would rather want the splinters which killed more than a ball clean through. Lower velocity meant more splinters. The volume of powder in the charge was varied based on this. No?

Also, I believe some of the stoutest ships in some cases were Spanish. They had better access to harder worlds through Cuba then the English or French. Yes?

The cross member question is interesting. I thought she did have crossbracing. It was removed in the 1820's and not replaced as most thought the ship would be scrapped in a few years. It was more modern research that suggested she did have them. Yes, she did hog, but we all sag more when we get older, especially when carrying too much weight. A ship model club in Boston may be able to answer this.

usscmsg.org

haha i actually think the story of uss president is funnier than constitution runnin away from squadrons. half the presidents history is chasing english ships and them outrunning her. i guess you can build as tough and powerful a ship as you want but if you cant actually catch anyone it doesnt make a difference.

not to mention the president was involved in the little belt thing where they thought they were attacking like a 40 gun frigate and the instance where they turned tail and ran claiming they were chased by a ship of the line and a frigate that turned out to be a small frigate and like a 16 gun sloop.

im curious when you went to san diego was the surprise there from master and commander?

we are getting way off topic, sorry

Yes, she was.

Fairly recently acquired when I saw her, carried lots of props and costume exhibits from the film itself. Fantastic.

Must have been out of season as I remember more or less having her to myself – cue much standing on the deck gazing out to sea and looking suitably steely-jawed and heroic.

Hotel turned out to be virtually next to a really good wargames shop in the Old Town. Lovely trip, can see why people fall in love with California.

Mark B.

wow that does sound like a good trip. im not even sure we have a shop like that anywhere close to me. ive been to san diego once but quite a while ago. even if the ship was there i wouldnt have known what it was haha

i read on here that the drydock will still be open for people to see the constitution so hopefully i can still check that out. and im really excited for hermione in philadelphia.

i really wish i could see trincomalee too though

Don't talk to me about Hermione…

I've visited her 5 times during her build and am back in Rochefort this year now that she is complete and where will she be when I'm visiting ? – America !

I'd recommend anyone to see her on her tour if you possibly can, even freshly launched and as a floating hull she was wonderful and under sail must be an incredible sight.

I will have to catch her when she is back in Europe.

Thanks for the conversation,

Mark

well i've never even been to boston and the year i decide to go and see constitution is the year they decide to put her in drydock for the next 3 years haha.

i wish i could have seen it built. thats fascinating to me