"State of play: 10mm vs 15mm" Topic

There have been a few posts recently about the merits of 10mm.

I recently sold all my 15mm naps and ancients for work on other projects and converted 20mm ww2 to 10mm. But I regret selling the ancients and the naps.

When I research both scales, a lot of people claim that the detail in 10mm is great, sometimes even better than 15mm. Is this really true?

Also is 10mm (for all periods) a growing scale? Surely 15mm holds dominance in terms of range and coverage and will do for a long time?

I know that these discussions are all subjective and each scale has it's champions but I'd be interested in what people think.

Naturally this is very subjective, but since you asked, I think this choice may be best made by determining what you enjoy most about the hobby. If painting and uniform detail are the most fun to you, choose 15's. If you spend most of your hobby time actually playing, you should seriously consider the 10s, other than for the ancients.

I have 15mm Ancients and ECW and feel the scale is perfect for these periods. My FOG armies usually contain about 140 figures per side and they fit a 6x4 foot table with room to maneuver. The diversity of ancients figures is much better in 15mm.

On the other hand, my roughly 10,000 Napoleonic figures are 10mm, which looks great and gives a more massed look to the battlefield without overcrowding it. These are (mostly) painted to a standard which would do justice to a a 15mm. The ranges for this period are now pretty good and are growing every few months.

In fact, I like this look so much that If I had it to do over again, I would have gone to 10s for my ACW as well, but it's too late now.

This is an interesting question. I have collected 28's for over 20 years and a couple of years ago I became fixated on doing actual battles in actual ground scale without bathtubbing….more of a simulation I thought. I've dabbled in 15s before but not high quality modern figures and the detail turned me off at the time. I bought up a bunch of 10mm old glory naps and perrin FPW. I think both of these lines are really well sculpted with realistic proportions. Are they AB good? No…but probably on par with Blue Moon which are really good. The problem is there are gaps in the ranges and I find most of the other 10mms kind of stubby. The biggest issue is that the selection and alternatives are not there for me and the ranges that have the proportions I appreciate are not being added to (nothing more thrilling than new releases). All to say I am still doing my 28s but if I do a smaller scale it will probably be 18mm just for the painting variety and to paint figures I appreciate and in teh correct uniforms. I can do whatever with 18 I can do with 10s…just means 12 man units rather than 18 or 20 man 10's. Thats just me though….I like gaming as much as painting but realistically painting is 80% of the time and it has to maintain the interest.

I found 6mm has a good selection for ancients with fairly extensive ranges from the four major manufacturers. Also, quite good for creating armies TMP link

The only 10mm stuff which ever turns up at our club is WW2. Napoleonic and Ancient are the province of 6mm, 15mm and 28mm. I am a maverick with my 20mm Ancients.

Sad to say it, but 10mm is a niche scale. Always has been, always will be.

I believe in and enjoy diversity … both for presenting wargames and building a satisfying collection.

But 15mm ticks so many boxes I do end up doing more 15s than anything else.

I don't believe the detail on 10mm is better than on 15s but is frequently as good – which means 10mm delivers a lot of benefit in a small package.

That said, I own up, my 10mm FPW project is languishing on the back burner.

Phil

I think 10mm would probably better hide my poor painting skill but all my figures are 15mm. If I was starting out I might go with 10mm if the variety is there.

I'm a 10mm fan. I find them much quicker to paint than 15mm and the finished units look good. I still have 20mm WW2, 28mm ECW and 15mm Ancients, SYW and Napoleonics, but most new periods are getting the 10mm treatment- so Medievals, Early WW2, WSS, LoA and new Ancient armies are in 10mm. Cost and ease of painting mean I can provide both sides, so no problem finding opponents.

I like 15mm, still have them for my Medieval, but Napoleonic and SYW are my favourite periods to game, and I just want to get stuff on the table and game, and for me, that is where 10mm comes in, if you are a good painter people can pick them up and go ooh ahh, or if like me you cant paint for toffee, once the flags are on and nicely based, once they are on the table they look fine, and if someone bends down to have a closer look just poke them in the eye with your pen.
In fact I like 10mm so much when I realised no one did what I wanted ie 1805-1807 I started my own range.
So I think personally anything with a gun 10mm, hand to hand prefer 28mm or 15mm

I like 10 mm for WW2 and moderns. I think they look better on the table than 6, 15 or 20 mm. I have painted 10 mm TYW and SYW, but didn't like the final look. One of the appeals of these periods, esp. SYW and Napoleonics, is the diverse uniforms, which look better in larger scales. I would do ACW in 10 mm with ACWBill's outstanding Plank Road and Cracker Line, but I already have several thousand figures in 15 mm.

What I had started to do is paint 10mm figures and base them on a 28mm base size. Since 10mm figs are so much cheaper, you can mass more figures on the base. The look is excellent…

However, it is rare that you have a co-gamer, who is willing to do the same, so you end up trying to build everything yourself, which increases the cost and significantly slows down the process. The project ends up getting shelved, which I have done with, both ancients and FPW….

I sold off virtually all my 6mm and 15mm horse-and-musket armies when Division After Division first brought the AIM line of 10mm figures to the United States. Eventually, I sold my 10mm SYW/AWI armies and went back to 15mm figures for that period, because I found that the lack of room on a 10mm figure for the buttons-and-lace details was negatively impacting my enjoyment of the painting process. However, I retained and have continued to expand my 10mm forces for ACW, Napoleonics, and ECW/TYW.

I wouldn't say that the detail on most 10mm figures is equal to that of the better 15mm lines, but at arm's length or wargame table distances the differences are negligible. As for range and coverage, there's little doubt that the current expansion of 10mm lines will continue for some time, until they rival other scales. Plus, 10mm figures can be a little more flexible, with the tinier details that distinguish certain uniforms being just insignificant enough that you can get away with "paint conversions" of roughly similar figures without having to resort to extensive knife and putty work.

As for 10mm always having been and always being a "niche scale", I remember wargamers saying the same thing about 15mm back in the '70s and '80s. While they are not popular in some areas, you will seldom get a useful or accurate prediction about wargamers in general by extrapolating from the preferences of a particular club. (Every time I have done so, I was horribly wrong.)

While the mass effect of 10mm figures on 28mm bases is visually impressive, the much larger number of figures tends to cancel out the advantages of cost and painting time. On the other hand, though basing 10mm figures in the same manner as larger figures is very economical and conserves table space, it leads to a very sparse look. I have found that a compromise – using more figures on bases that would be about right for a smaller number of 15mm figures – takes advantage of both the smaller size and lower cost.

As for the disadvantages of finding a co-gamer to carry half the weight . . . if you only do forces for games that others are willing to do, you will never get to play the games that you really want to play. If there's a period you're really passionate about and want to do in 10mm, then do the work and field all the necessary forces . . . you'll always find someone who's willing to play.

Jeff

Although traditionally a 15mm player, these days I have converted mostly to 10mm (and 6mm) as I prefer the look of the smaller scales and, to be honest, I also prefer painting them.

However, there are so many more 15mm manufacturers out there that they probably cover far more armies and unit types than 10mm ranges do.

I just cant paint smaller figures than 15m. Have tried but just think they aren't worth my time. Have seen great painted 10mm or smaller but its not for me. Also up to now i havent seen a 10mm table which give me the wow feeling. But thats just my opinion.

War Artisan converted me to 10mm some years ago and I'm glad to make the change. His arguments cover most of the points I'd make, excepted I'd be happy to 18thC in 10mm.

Personally I find them easier to paint 10mm than 15mm because they require less details. I don't need to worry about lace and piping.

You had my attention at "piping"!
Currently painting Perry Napoleonics in 28mm, but may explore 10s for massed battles using 'Blücher' rules.

I produce terrain for wargaming and I have one of the largest ranges of 10mm products available anywhere. But I don't sell very much compared with my other scales. I don't know if that says anything about the overall popularity of the 10mm scale, but it might.

Back in the late 70s I played mostly Ancients and everybody had 25mm. Then 15mm swept the board and you couldn't even sell off the larger figures. 10mm figures were puny, fragile and unappealing.

Fast forward to 2000 when I came back into wargaming and we have a range of options including 10mm and 6mm, but the most surprising thing to me is the recrudescence of larger figures in the form of 28mm. Many of these are beautiful figures, but I suspect the popularity is largely a product of the eye candy promoted by wargame magazines.for IMO they are good for skirmish games but 'impractical' for mass wargames unless you have a lot of time, space and money.

I have certainly moved down in scale, particularly to 10mm and potentially to 6mm and even smaller, and this seems to be the trend amongst my wargaming friends and colleagues. I have a particular dislike of single rank units. 10mm and 6mm allow you to depict two ranks on 40mm x 20mm base and that looks so much better aesthetically. But it does depend on rules and basing requirements.

For modern, predominantly infantry games like Crossfire, 15mm still wins out over 10mm for me, but for everything else (apart from skirmish) I'd now go 10mm or smaller.

Except for a small 15mm Romano-British army, I've dumped everything smaller than 25/28mm scale. It's just not any fun to paint anymore, and I find that the details on the larger minis are much more fun to paint, and I have more enjoyment gaming with them than with the smaller scales.

If you like 10mm or 15mm or 6mm or whatever, then go for it! if it is what makes you happy, then use it. But it's not for me, and I don't find any enjoyment playing with any of the smaller scales.

In fact, I've been looking at going to 54mm scale for ECW games.

But there is no "right" scale. The only thing you should worry about is whether you enjoy painting and gaming with a particular scale.

I love 15mm. I always have. Its my favourite scale for anything that shoots guns.

I use 28mm for ancients or any period with swords.

In 18 mm you have AB and in 28 mm quite a lot of interesting manufacturers, my personal favourite the Perrys, 10 mm is very appealing, but I miss such an outstanding range as AB or the Perrys.

Rule 1: Never sell anything you painted unless you have to (as in, you're dead broke, getting divorced, long-term hospital, moving in with mom etc).
Rule 2: Game in the same scale as your friends.
Rule 3: Try to buy all your period armies in the same scale so you don't have to collect different scales of terrain.

(BTW, 28mm is popular because older wargamers can't see the detail on smaller figures.)

The 10mm seems like a nice scale but, if you want variety then having 6mm, 15-18mm, and 28mm covers it all. The 6mm gives you the opportunity for massive battles without needing an 18 foot table. I personally like painting the my 18mm ABs with their awesome detail. Since I already have about 4,000 18mm Naps I cannot see selling them and starting over for 10mm.

I do not personally like an 8 foot table wall to wall with 28mm figures, so I would use these for skirmishing games.

@Murvihill

Rule #1 – Yes. Pry them from my dead hands
Rule #2 – absolutely but they play in different scales …
Rule #3 – see #2 and FAIL on my part

@The Young Guard

This is a good thread. I don't think there is a straight answer.

The smaller the scale, the more figures you get on the table and the more impressive it can be. Look at Bill's (williamb) "now that's a Phalanx" Phalanx.

The larger the scale, the better you can see the figures – if you are into the painting side you will be able to get more out of it. I like the painting but without my reading glasses on, most units look pretty much the same

Modern sculpts are way ahead of where they used to be and this breaks a lot of the old prejudices against smaller scales

The other question is how big a battle is in your imagination. If you were to field a battle with thousands of figures, how big a table would you need ? Is it ever actually going to happen ?

I painted up Napoleonic samples in 28, 15, 10 and 6 (and Gary has threatened me with some 3s as well). The 28s I spent way to long on. The 6s were too fiddly for me. The 10s and 15s felt good.

There are two big advantages to 15 – just about everything is available (Napoleonics and Ancients) and there is a lot available used. So it is not hard to build up big, complex armies

10mm is growing as a scale. I have been building 10mm Ancient army and enjoying that scale of painting – just enough detail for painting, but enough figures so that you get the mass effect.

Napoleonics I decided to go 15mm as I managed to get lots of unpainted figures used.

See how I have been breaking Murvihill's Rule #3 ?

I think if I was less into painting I would do 6mm to get the massed effects. If you are not "detail oriented" then 6mm units can be painted up very very quickly

John

Martin – maybe a niche at YOUR club?

I've never done 15s, so can't comment. I do love 10mm though. These are WSS (So still muskets). I do 6 on a 20mm base, my mate does 4 (to save money and painting time, which is why he wins the arms race!)

link

link

link

ECW, just to show what you can do with pikes on a 30mm base.

Thanks to everyone who has engaged with this one!

I suppose for me 10mm works forme in ww2 for a number of reassons but mainly is just feel right. There seems to be less colour to paint so to speak.

But I think, as others have said, I enjoy painting. I was trained by someone who is, I believe, quite a well known figure painter in the uk so it's kinda in my blood.

Also it does matter to me that a certain regiment is distinguished by the colour of lace or number of buttons, but I'm weird. Should never of sold my 15mm!

The point of Napoleonics is the exquisite detail of the uniforms and the color. 25MM is the best but 15MM at least retains 75% of the detail and a good compromise for wargaming large battles. Well written rules and good scenario make an enjoyable game in that you do not need 10MM.

Important, yes, Marshall Vorwarts, but not the whole point for everybody who plays Napoleonics.

As far as I'm concerned, the uniforms on the figures only need to be detailed enough to identify the unit on the table. The aspects of Napoleonics that are most important to me are finding solutions to tactical and grand-tactical problems, within the command and control capabilities of the period. The "exquisite detail of the uniforms" is a decidedly secondary consideration.

Aesthetically, I'm more concerned with an attractive table and a visually impressive panorama than with the individual figures. The use of 10mm figures greatly enhances my approach to Napoleonic wargaming, while 25mm figures would hinder it greatly.

I think it's just too bloody hard to decide what scale to go for. I cycle through the 10mm, 15mm, 1/72 and 28mm options on a daily basis.

I was hoping that having read this far down the post, the answer would have been revealed :-)

I like formations in battle, but I have a small table. I struggle with painting small figures and thought I didn't like painting until I did some 1/72 and 28mm, I actually enjoyed those.

Aesthetically I like the big figure, Aesthetically I like 10mm formations with towns of several buildings that can fit into an 8" x 8" square. I just like everything and that is the problem, but the one thing that is not flexible for me is that I am limited to both gaming and storage space …… but I still want bigger – there we go again, around the same loop.

This year I have stagnated a bit because I have three different scales on the painting table as I try to 'once and for all' to 'discover' which scale will serve me best and importantly go to one scale of terrain.

Yesterday I was painting Kallistra 12mm Union infantry, today I stopped and instead started to re-vamp an old Matchbox 1/72 street scenic, to make it viable for a rubbled building in a wargame for forces that I don't even have yet (well they are in the painting queue) :-)

I am gaming on 4' x 3' at the moment, with a possible move on the horizon, but my gaming space is never really going to get bigger than kitchen / dining table proportions.

I look at my 10mm HMG unit and I look at my 1/72 HMG parts (still in their box) and one of them sings to me and the other is really practical – bah!

I am in full agreement with the sentiments expressed by War Artisan. The "battle" is the thing that matters most to me, both the look of the table and the tactical interactions. This competitive "back and forth" in a friendly setting while recreating the battles of the Napoleonic era is the most enjoyable thing to many of us.

The ability to have a massed look without crowding the table is what appeals to many of us who prefer 10mm. Besides, my 10s have been painted to a pretty fair level of detail. We can easily tell what is what, and an "expert" could, for example, identify my individual Dragoon regiments. It's only my preference, but that's enough detail for me.

No matter what era, scale or rules for minatures, I think board/computer gaming is a superior alternative if one is concerned with tactical and grand tactical solutions but it simply lacks the pageantry that only minatures provides. Napoleonics is by far the most pageant of them all which is why I only game miniature Napoleonics but have no problem playing any board game.

I hear your pain norsmith. I do miss my 20mm ww2 but I'm happy with 10mm. Naps and ancients are different. I do skirmish in 28mm for dark ages and fiw. But there hasn't been a range in ancients 10mm that has caught my eye and there isn't the range the exists in 15mm. Naps are a bit different but then ab scripts are lush.

Stupid companies with their enticing wares.

I have something in most scales, but prefer 10mm. Main reasons:

1) Small means more portable and easier to decide to do both sides.
2) Bigger than 6mm, so you can paint those cuffs and stuff.
3) Looks great in big masses, but still OK 'DBx-ed'.
4) For WW2 and the like, using 10mm minis and 15-28mm rules and distances just creates a better look.
5) Vehicles, planes and terrain are much cheaper in 10mm, because it's practically the same scale as 1:144 and N, opening up those vast ranges from plastic kit manufacturers. They're lighter, cheaper and on top of that many come prepainted or multi-colored.

The only downside is that scifi isn't represented as well as in 6 and 28mm.

Cheers.