"simple question, cant find answer..." Topic

I simply need the offical full strength number of a Russian dragoon squadron (c. 1813) i can find for British, french and prussian, i find all the info i need about regimental and squadron structure. But not actally just the number of troops.

Wayull…I hate to post b/c I know Alexandre will be here in a sec, but I think you're looking at six field squadrons and one reserve squadron. Each Regiment was to consist of 55 officers, 22 trumpeters, 126 NCOs and 1260 privates. (Zhmodikov et Zhmodikov) My own personal guess would be that you'd see maybe half that in the field in 1813, but you knew that. :-)

Not so simple, maybe.

In 1812, the establishment had been :
4 active squadrons
1 replacement squadron (which was used to bring the 4 active squadrons up to strength, and then was usually ordered into the field as part of temporary combined regiment)
1 reserve squadron, for new recruits

Per the establishment of 25 December 1812 : 6 active squadrons + depot.
This was supposed to be 6 active squadrons + the former reserve (recruit) squadron being converted into a 7th depot squadron.

For combattant ranks (including musicians) ….

From among the army's general officers :
Шеф / Shef / Chief, regimental commander-in-chief, also led the 1st, or Shef's, squadron

Regimental Headquarters
Полковникъ / Polkovnik / Colonel, regimental commander, also led the 6th, or Commander's, squadron
Подполковникъ / Podpolkovnik / Lieutenant Colonel, squadron commander
3x Маіоръ / Maior / Major, squadron commanders
Полковой Казначей / Polkovoy Kaznachey / Regimental Treasurer, a lieutenant, forms with the 1st squadron
Полковой Квартирмейстеръ / Polkovoy Kvartermistr / Regimental Quartermaster, a lieutenant, forms with the 1st squadron
Полковой Адъютантъ /Polkovoy Ad'yutant / Regimental Adjudant, a lieutenant (with the regimental commander)
Адъютантъ Шефа / Ad'yutant Shefa / Chief's Adjudant, a lieutenant or ensign (with the regimental chief)
up to 4x Эскадронный Адъютантъ / Eskadronnyy Ad'yutant / Squadron Adjudant, ensign (with the other active squadrons – see note below)
2x Штабъ-трубачъ * / Shtab-Trubach / Staff Trumpter or Trumpeter Corporal, forms with the 1st squadron

add one Трубачъ / Trubach / Trumpeter, for each award of a Saint-George or Silver Trumpet, forms with the 1st squadron (additionally, the Saint-Petersburg dragoon regiment retained 2x Silver Ketteldrums awarded in 1763)

* one of the two can also be Литаврщикъ / Litavrshchik / Kettle Drummer, if retained from prior establishment

In each of 7 Squadrons (one is the depot)
Капитанъ / Kapitan / Captain, commanded 1st platoon
Штабсъ-капитанъ / Shtabs-kapitan / Staff Captain, commanded 4th platoon
2x Поручикъ / Poruchik / Lieutenant, commanded 2nd and 3rd platoons
3x Прапорщикъ / Praporshchik / Ensign, with 2nd, 3rd and 4th platoons (not included in the depot squadron)
Старшій вахмистръ / Starshiy vakhmistr / (Cavalry) Sergeant Major, with 1st platoon
2x Фаненъ-юнкеръ / Fanen-yunker / Standard-bearer Office Candidate + 2x Юнкеръ ** / Yunker / Office Candidate, one per platoon
Квартермистръ / Kvartermistr / Quartermaster Sergeant, commanded the squadron train
12x Младшій унтеръ-офицеръ / Mladshiy unter-ofitser / Corporal, 3 per platoon
180x Драгун / Dragun / Dragoon, 40 per platoon (20 ranks), plus 20 (un-mounted) with the train …. actually most regiments seem to have been staffed up to 16 ranks per platoon in the active squadrons (which was the prior establishment), with the number of ranks in the depot squadron being the result of the number of recruits sent to them
3x Трубачъ / Trubach / Trumpeter

** also can be Вахмистръ / Vakhmistr / (Cavalry) Sergeant, former ranker NCO's (non-noble) who were usually not officer candidates, despite the best intentions of the War Ministry to provide for more promotions of non-nobles from the ranks.

Do you want the organization of the regimental and squadron trains and all the (many) non-combattants ?

The Zhmodikov's are giving the totals per the "law" 25 December 1812. However, the law was lacking in detail, and there were several issues that were resolved both informally, and later with formal amendments. Examples :
-- The law said 22 trumpters (3 per squadron, plus a staff-trumpeter). In theory this meant elimination of the kettle-drummer, who was with at least some of the regiments formed before 1803, and maybe all of them. This was later amended to add a second staff-trumpeter (total 23) – but whether this was still a person with a kettle drum, or actually 2 trumpets, and exactly when for each regiment, remains an open issue
-- The law said 55 officers (49 company officers, 6 with the regimental staff). This neglected that a squdron had been added, which did not stop the regiments from processing all sort of requests to promote a senior captain to major (a major was similarly omitted in the 1810 re-organization of the infantry). The law also forgot to mention the 4 existing adjudants in the 4 exisiting active squadrons, or to provide for the need to staff up to 6 adjudants for 6 active squadrons. This appears to have been fixed by (i), pulling the 3 ensigns of the depot squadron (under the pre-1803 establishment, there were no ensigns at the depot) and having up to 3 more adjudants (i) technically over-complement, and/or (ii) pulled from the active squadrons, and/or (iii) using Yunkers as adjudants.
-- Per the law, 2 of the corporals in each squadron were supposed to be not mounted. There is no reason to think this actually happened in the active squadrons on compaign

- Sasha

So the total of combat troopers in a squadron was 180?

Gunfreak,

Yes, 180 troopers per squadron, but ….
- 20 were supposed to be not-mounted, with the trains and 160 in the ranks : 40 per platoon, 20 files
- this was per the establishment decreed at the end of 1812
- I don't see any record, during the war, of anyone trying to build active squadrons past a strength of 16 files per platoon, the total per the prior establishment, for a total of 128 troopers : 32 per platoon, 16 files

In general, Russian regulations may pre-date or post-date actual practices. Enforcement or adherence to regulations was expected, even attempted, but with mixed results. Lots of notices, letters, instructions, inspections, and many very nicely laid out pre-printed forms and what not – but mixed results.

There are plenty of examples of commanders writing to the ministry letters such as "I am confused about XXXX regulation, what [color of flagpole][color of shoulder strap][number of rations for officers' servant][number of new recruits][number of wagons and carts][etc.] am I supposed to have?"

You often have to look at examples of the application of the regulations, for calibration.

There is a saying in Russia that goes something like this:
"Everything is impossible, and probably against the law. However, actually everything is possible."
:-)

- Sasha