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"Custer’s Gatling Guns PHOTOS " Topic


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Personal logo Nashville Supporting Member of TMP14 May 2015 8:44 p.m. PST

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At Nashcon we will wheel out our Little Big Horn game WITH Custer's Gatling guns. As one source indicates "Custer traveled without the inconvenience of the two, three, or four — the quantity varies by source — Gatling guns available to him. These were left behind at Fort Abraham Lincoln. The absence of any of these guns at the Little Big Horn engagement may have substantially affected its outcome." Ernest M. Teagarden, The Guns Col. Custer Left Behind An entire alternate History has been written about the topic.
link Another book says: :George Armstrong Custer did not have to die at the Little Big Horn. Victory, in the form of two Gatling Guns that he left behind, was always in his grasp. In "1882 – Custer in Chains," he not only survives but wins a great victory that propels him into the White House." link
Enough of that. Let's see what happens "for real" on the wargame table. Colonel Custer and the Gatling Guns. At Nashcon. Friday May 22, 2015.

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skippy000115 May 2015 7:51 a.m. PST

In my Space 1889 campaign timeline Crazy Horse captured the Gatlings…..

Those are really nice!

M C MonkeyDew15 May 2015 9:27 a.m. PST

Great looking figures.

I always wanted to play a game where the cavalry had the option of taking the Gatlings.

If they did the field would be completely devoid of Indians cause they never would have caught up with any. Undeniably it would have saved Custer's life though :)

Would work better in a campaign setting.

Still looks like a cracking game!

Bob

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP15 May 2015 10:45 a.m. PST

Agreed. Nice looking game. But there was zero chance that the Gatlings would go with Custer. Look what happened when Reno took them on his 'Scout' before the battle. Miserable to handle and slow as heck. Plus I remain unconvinced that standing guys next to a Gatling would have had a long survival period firing upon covered approaches.

Thanks,

John

charared15 May 2015 4:53 p.m. PST

He probably would have left them with the pack train… (then Benteen could've "really" excused his tardy response to Cooke's order.).

How effective would the Gatling's have been in a piecemeal, helter-skelter, failed offensive, retreating defensive battle that seems to have occurred.

*PERHAPS* with Benteen's pack train; re-united with what was left of Reno's immediate command, fewer troopers on "Reno's Hill" would've become casualties.

Personal logo Nashville Supporting Member of TMP15 May 2015 5:26 p.m. PST

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benglish15 May 2015 5:42 p.m. PST

I'm not that well read on the topic of Gatlings, but as Mr. Leahy says above, they were ungainly, awkward to move over terrain, and (contrary to the scene from The Outlaw Josey Wales), apt to jam frequently. I'm guessing there'd just be more grave markers on Last Stand Hill if they'd made the trip -- if they even made it that far.

skippy000115 May 2015 7:15 p.m. PST

So I guess the Steam-Electro Mini-Gatling with a refridgerated Land Train Car would be right out….

Couldn't they have sent just more guys??

John Leahy Sponsoring Member of TMP15 May 2015 9:37 p.m. PST

Custer should have taken the extra Companies of Cav. That could have made a difference.

Cambria562216 May 2015 3:58 a.m. PST

But taking companies from another cavalry regiment would have meant sharing the 'glory'.

M C MonkeyDew16 May 2015 4:52 a.m. PST

Integrating troops from another command seemed more trouble than it was worth given past combats.

Hindsight is 20/20

As an alternate history game or as part of a campaign this is an option that should be…on the table…

Bob

Askari Minis Sponsoring Member of TMP16 May 2015 6:34 a.m. PST

At the siege of Port Arthur in the Russo-Japanese War, the Russians reckoned their Gorlov/Gatling guns to be worth 250 rifles each.

I could be wrong, but the Gatling on the right (in the picture with two Gatlings) looks like our Askari Minis model (A-9). Very cool!

CorpCommander16 May 2015 7:55 a.m. PST

Custer wasn't dumb. He was quite able and his decision to not bring gatling guns or artillery with him on patrols is quite rational. The typical native nomadic camp usually had 30-100 fighters in it. They moved around a lot over a patrol area that was massive. Even with horses, covering it and finding the native population was difficult. It required speed, knowledge of which water sources were drinkable and which were alkaline. It required luck as well.

Gatling guns and cannon would be required to keep up with the cavalry. This just was not possible given the wilderness areas that needed to be traversed. He would have had no success with his patrols without speed. Often the patrols needed to operate for as much as 72 hours straight to make contact.

Finally, there was a change in the native tactics in the month leading up to Little Big Horn. The population of natives had accepted a spiritual prophesy by Crazy Horse. It was a very rare occurrence. The small groups started to find each other and form larger ones. The Battle of the Rosebud just prior to the Big Horn showed the natives were now fighting back harder. An interesting intelligence failure is that the behavior change wasn't reported. It would have been expected to be reported but there were various personal and inter-cavalry reasons why it wasn't.

When Custer came across the main body he was running on no sleep for days. His wings were sent out to flank. He didn't realize he was striking a force 100 fold greater in size than the average previous encounter. In the distance you see the encampment but you can't judge how big it really is other than larger than normal.

The normal engagement tactics took into account the fact that the natives would flee upon first contact so if you were going to defeat them you needed to hit them quickly from multiple sides and then combine, stand, and fight. These tactics worked for 11 years.

Those tactics worked with the Springfield single shot rifles the Army used against the aged rifles the natives often had. However, due to the prophesy, the natives started to gather much more advanced weapons. They had a mix of repeaters and longer ranged rifles. They typical 7th cavalry load was 15 rounds of ammunition.

Two more factors: about 15% of the 7th Cavalry were warriors in that they were trained, dedicated, and ready to fight. The Army wasn't a great deal in 1870's. That fact meant it drew in people who had little other choice and who were ready to desert their post if they could when they got what they wanted (usually just being moved out West where there was opportunity).

The final intelligence failure is that the attack was launched without advanced scouting. This meant that, not only was the size of the encampment greatly underestimated, but that the topology of the land wasn't appreciated and that the plan of combining the wings back on the center just wasn't even possible in the timespan of the battle.

However! If they had done the scouting. If they had known that the natives were standing their ground. This intelligence would have been useful. It would allow for a scouting party to find the main body and stick with it, sending couriers with detailed information. As it was, they weren't going anywhere. This was a gigantic festival for the natives and they were going to be there a while.

However a great Centennial defeat of the natives would have required a force that probably didn't exist in the West at that time. Even larger battles that would follow such as the Dull Knife Fight, only created minimal casualties. In order to defeat the natives the Army could either do what it did which was a slow hunting of remaining groups or the development of faster deploying support firepower. That would have required a lot of innovation.

I think this game will be a fun What-if!

Personal logo Nashville Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2015 7:04 p.m. PST

The Gatling is Artizan Miniatures

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---But I like the Askari as well.

Stand by for GAME RULES !!!!!!!

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