"Another British AWI question" Topic

Hi,
It seems these questions turn up over and over so please excuse me for asking that once again but the subject is very confusing. I have a box of Perry's AWI British infantry. I'd like to build a small force for the Muskets and Tomahawks. In the beginning I wanted to have a plain tricorne\bearskin\long coat look and probably would be much happier with the box from Wargames Factory painted in generic way without digging up so much info but I got what I got. I'd like to have Centre, Light and probably even Grenadier units which are possible distinguish from each other from one box. Since I'm missing bearskins, caps for Lights and got short coats, reading here and there leads me to the Saratoga campaign period where all units possibly had the same cut down caps. The plan is to make the 21st Foot (they should have been to be there, blue facings are cool, they are elite and it's said that they kept two of their flank companies with them which suits my needs). Now the info is very sparse and even nice Perry's painting guide seems to be a bit confusing so right now I came to this:
Centre company – cut down tricorne hats with white crest, white or buff belts, waistcoats white, 2 shoulder straps(blue???).
Light company – cut down tricorne hats with white crest, black belts, waistcoats red, 2 shoulder straps(blue???).
Grenadiers – cut down tricorne hats with white crest, white or buff belts, waistcoats white, 2 shoulder straps(blue???), shoulder wings(blue???, however Perry's guide shows them in white).
Officers – The cap could be uncut tricorne, lace and buttons gold.
Please am I missing something?

I think generally the shoulder straps are the coat colour, i.e. red, and the lace colour of wings is nearly always white.

It depends on where and when. In both the Saratoga and Southern Campaigns the British modified their hats and coats. But in each campaign it was done differently. As for the New York, New Jersey and Philadelphia Campaigns I am sticking to the traditional tri-crones. I wasn't aware that strap colors varied. All of mine are white or buff.

Check out the Perry's website. They have some articles that can be quite helpful. I am sure Supercilius Maximus and/or historygamer will chime in. They are much more knowledgeable than I am about British Uniforms in the AWI.

Find a copy of John Mollo's book and some of Don Troiani's books. Osprey books are okay but you need to be careful and verify with another source.

I agree with Clib. The belts should be pipeclayed white, not buff as the 21st wasn't a buff-faced regiment, although I suppose they may well have gone "off-white" in the field.

This is a helpful site for British uniforms and details of things like buttons and lace: fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1R.htm

Also, if you'd like examples of some painted Perry figures of the 21st (albeit metal figures), might I humbly suggest this link: link

Giles

You might find this article useful:

PDF link

Yes, how can I forget DAF's excellent articles. Lots of good information.

1) Shoulder straps were red for all companies.
2) Wings were red with white lace for both flank companies, and for all regiments except the Foot Guards.
3) I would not consider the 21st elite, per se – or any of the other Fusilier regiments at this time; the 23rd only became so because of long and distinguished service over teh course of the AWI, whilst the 7th suffered the loss of its colours on two occasions.
4) The Perry website has an article on the British Saratoga regiments – not clear if you were referring to this, or the colour chart in the box – which will give you more information on the 21st. It had a Colonel who was reputedly not keen on spending money on his regiment, and was not always the best when it came to turn-out.
5) I'd leave the lace off the officer's tricorne and just have it plain.
6) A memo between Fraser and Phillips – sadly, not all of which survives – mentions that the Grenadier Battalion in Burgoyne's army had inconsistencies in headgear across the 10 companies.
7) As an alternative route, you could use the tricornes, or slouch hats, and simply paint wings on the shoulders of your figures; at this time, the wings were simply a layer of cloth sewn onto the shoulder of the coat, and did not stand proud of the shoulder as they did in the Napoleonic period. Such figures would arguably be more representative of grenadiers than light bobs, but no-one could say they were definitely wrong, as both types of flank company wore hats rather than the expensive fur or leather caps, as the wore went on and there is no reason the lights could have reverted to fuller coats nearer the end of the war (and certainly the regiments in the Middle Colonies in the winter months).
8) There is a suggestion that the Saratoga hat-cap lasted until the end of the war, in both Regular and Loyalist regiments (which reminds me – have you considered doing the King's Royal Regiment of New York?).

Cocked hats. Just saying. :-)

Good info on the 62nd

62ndregiment.org

RE SM's Note (7): The portrait of Lt James Stewart, Light Coy of the 42nd RH (1st LI Bn) painted sometime after October 1777 and before October 1781, apparently as the leaves were turning, shows him in a cut-down Line officer's uniform coat (I think) with blue facings & gold lace on 'cape,'lapels and cuffs but with white linings to the turned-back tails. He has narrow, red shoulder 'wings' with gold lace; ditto shoulder straps. His waistcoat is white (NB), plain and cut straight across. He wears white breeches and stockings with buckle shoes.

Stewart had joined the 42nd from the 5th after Germantown, and so would not have been party to whatever uniform amendments had been made by the 42nd lights for the 1777 campaign. The portrait is most likely to have been executed in the autumn of either 1778,1779 or 1780.

For the record, it is difficult to discern whether the ostrich feather in his low diced bonnet is black or a very dark green. Opinions differ.

Fig 44 of Mollo/McGregor is based on this portrait- a monochrome version of which can be found in Reid's 'C18th Highlanders'- but it depicts Stewart with full campaign appurtenances- cartridge box, low gaiters, whereas in the portrait, while he carries a fusil with bayonet fixed, he wears only a black bayonet belt.

For the record, it is difficult to discern whether the ostrich feather in his low diced bonnet is black or a very dark green. Opinions differ.

Similar problem with the hat-cap "mane" for the 24th Foot in the von Germann depictions of Burgoyne's army.

Thanks to everyone. When I refer to Perry I mean both the article and painting guide. And there are some small diefferences like one says all companys in the given regiment wore black belts and the other says that only Lights wore bleck belts. By buff belts I mean weathered, say off-white.Anyways it still seems complicated. I did choose 21st only because in a Perry guide I found that I could differtiate centre, lights and grenadiers somehow which is my primary goal. If there is an easier way with other regiment where I can paint something to distinguish them from each other and stay within the contents of a single box of plastics please suggest. Like the King's Royal Regiment of New York maybe. I don't really know I just like to have something more or less historically acceptible. I only would want to avoid orange,yellow and red facings(buff will do) anf maybe uncocked round hat if possible. Thanks.

It's easy to avoid orange facings. That was only one regiment, the 35th.

Remember also that "buff" is not just leather straps that the white pipeclay wore off. It is an actual facing color, worn by a few regiments. The collars, cuffs , lapels, turnbacks , trousers and waistcoats were buff, as well as the straps.

Presumably, on campaign, regiments that did not have 'buff' facings on their coats (etc.) could also fall behind on the pipeclaying (or heel-balling) of their accoutrements, revealing the plain buff leather beneath.

After many hours of reading, re-reading and struggling I finally put the Saratoga hat-caps on my figures. And immediately realized that probably I did a mistake because I continuously misunderstood the Perry guide. I did read it like the battalions detached some of their flank companies to form grenadier and light infantry battalions, however it seems that they detached all of their flank companies. So my plan to paint centre and light companies in Saratoga uniforms is pretty much useless because in reality they never fought side by side. :) Ok, I put cocked hat to my officer and left 2 figures away which have to be NCOs or sergeants leading my two units. What headgear to put on them? Hat caps to be inline with the units or cocked hats to make them stand out?

There was no Light Infantry or Grenadier rank above Captain, so no one over that rank would have anything but a cocked hat.

I meant off-white as well.

Very rare to find the Light and Grenadier companies with their parent unit. At least that has been my experience conducting research and gaming.

Historygamer, I beg your pardon but that's what I love English languagef or. :) It means to use a cocked hat or not to use cocked hat? LoL

Cocked hats for your grens and lights commanders

Thanks.

There was no Light Infantry or Grenadier rank above Captain, so no one over that rank would have anything but a cocked hat.

From looking at more Muster Rolls than I care to remember, there were (very) rare occasions when a major would command a flank company. Off-hand, all of the examples I can recall were light companies, but I can't think of a reason (other than tradition perhaps) why a grenadier company would not be commanded by a major. Certainly any converged group of flank companies would have a major assigned to it, even if it was commanded by a Lt Col.

So my plan to paint centre and light companies in Saratoga uniforms is pretty much useless because in reality they never fought side by side.

No need to despair, there are some alternatives, especially if you look beyond the Burgoyne element of the 1777 campaign, or at what happened post-Saratoga.

One is that you use the KRRNY (see my earlier post), with their green uniforms.

Another is that you represent the 8th Foot, which occupied the forts on the Great Lakes, but which took part in the Fort Stanwix siege under St Leger, and also frequently took part in raids into north-western NY – just the type of action you will be gaming – alongside Indians, Tory Militia, and even jaeger from the Hesse Hanau unit (which expanded quite a lot, post-Saratoga).

A third option, is that you make your games post-77 and depict one of the three corps that remained behind in Canada – the 29th, 31st and 34th – or the 53rd which garrisoned Ticonderoga, and managed to escape back to Canada after Burgoyne's surrender. All four regiments supplied their flank companies to the Grenadier and Light battalions of Burgoyne's army; none appear to have officially re-created their flank companies afterwards (probably because those companies had not been "lost" as such, but were merely in captivity). However, they did form units of "picked men" for raids into northern NY – the 29th Foot, especially, formed a "ranger" company under Major Christopher Carelton (nephew and brother-in-law of Sir Guy Carleton). C Carleton became famous for his raids along the Richelieu/Champlain valley, in which he led Regulars, Loyalists, Indians and Brunswickers, and was by all accounts a highly charismatic and effective leader.

link

Use of the 29th Foot also allows you to have Regulars with buff belts and small clothers (waistcoats, breeches) which is a little more colourful than normal.

So my plan to paint centre and light companies in Saratoga uniforms is pretty much useless because in reality they never fought side by side.

Didn't Fraser's advance guard of Burgoyne's army contain a regular regiment as well as the light and grenadier companies of the other commands?

Supercilius Maximus, thanks for your help. The idea of an 8th foot sounds just perfect. But can I keep Saratoga hat-caps then? I don't really understand if this cap was made for units under Burgoyne command or it was a change for all units in the area?

I think the standard practice would be for all companies to be commanded by a Captain, or a Captain-Lieutenant for the Colonel's company. 'Getting one's Captaincy' meant acquiring a company with the financial responsibility and benefits, including the right to taking half-pay.

It wasn't unusual for Flank battalions to be commanded by Majors. At least, the Light Infantry battalions formed by Howe at Halifax in May 1776 were each commanded by a pair of Majors (1st LI Bn : Thomas Musgrave, 64th & Thomas Dundas, 65th; 2nd LI Bn: Hon. John Maitland, H.M. Marines & Turner von Straubenzee, 17th).

Formed at Staten Island in August 1776, the short-lived 4th Grenadier Bn was also commanded by a Major, Hon. Charles Stuart, 43rd. The 3rd Grenadiers too were commanded by a pair of Majors – Marsh and Stewart.

The 1st and 2nd Grenadier Bns, however, were each commanded by Lt Cols, William Meadows & Hon. Charles Monkton.

That is a snapshot from late summer/autumn 1776. I don't know if that is any help, having no bearing on Burgoyne's arrangements. There's no record of whether any of the COs affected caps or uncocked hats. Nor is it clear whether Eyre Coote of the 37th's LI coy wore the cap with dyed hair crest ordered for the men in the autumn of 1778.

@ Vicbull,

The Saratoga hat-cap was created prior to Burgoyne's march south and is thought to have been worn by all Regular and Loyalist units in Canada from late 76/early 77 until the end of the war. I'm not sure about the 8th Foot, as they were a little more remote geographically; also, the modern re-enactment unit seems to have a different view on what their historical predecessors' campaign uniform was (looks more like the one worn by Howe's army in the Philadelphia campaign).

link

You could always contact them and ask their views; alternatively, just portray them as looking similar to the other British units, with the hat-cap and shortened regimental coat – I doubt anyone will challenge you on it. The 8th must have come into contact with other Regular units wearing it as both they and the 34th Foot took part in the St Leger expedition. Both regiments had a contingent of some 200 or so "picked men" who would have represented the best and fittest of the centre companies' personnel.

For an excellent account of the raids that the 8th Foot took part in, get hold of a book called "The Burning of the Valleys" by Gavin Watt. The 8th kept its flank companies under its own control, but the regiment was dispersed (mostly in groups of 2 or 3 companies, but a few companies singly) around the Detroit and Great Lakes forts. Again, the 8th's website can probably give you more details.

SM:

So if a Major was commanding a Light company, would it be called the Major's company, and not the Light company? I also have to wonder just how many majors in this war ever commanded a company anyway, given the shortage of officers and the fact Majors were often detailed to other positions, as shown in Urban's 23rd RWF book (especially as the war went on). Further, if a Major, commanded a flank company, why would he dress down to a captain's uniform, since Major's were a field grade officer often commanding a wing or even battalion? Why put on two epaulets and flank hat as well? Since there was no official markings of rank, a quick look at a flank officer would likely make one think of a captain or lower, in this rather rank conscious army.

I say all of the above, but have been told by an officer in the recreated 64th that there is a portrait of a Major, but with two epaulets – which might be explained by your post above.

The former director of Old Fort Niagara, who wrote several books on the garrison of the fort there, told me the 8th was an old regiment and had a hard time fielding men for raids.

I would imagine that, _if_ that happened, Hg, the distinction between rank and appointment would apply. A Major commanding a flank company- often double the strength of a battalion coy, would still be a Major (IF that situation arose) – in the same way that Majors commanding battalions were still Majors.

@HG,

I have actually seen them listed as the company commander on a Muster Roll; quite often you have to look quite closely to find out which are the grenadier and light companies, as they are not always listed as such (two senior lieutenants is always a giveaway). Thinking about it, the few occasions may have been pre-/early-war, or may have followed an internal re-organisation (as undergone by the 23rd at one point during he middle of the war – from memory, it might have been when Howe took over the Colonelcy), in which command of most/all companies changed hands without any major change in officer personnel.

Ok, once again thanks to everyone for the contribution and help. It turned out much more complicated then expected in the begining. I'll stick to the idea of 8th foot no matter what caps they had. It should come to the end somehow and my "lights" are not correct anyways.It's time to put on some paint.

Well, I have some paint on them.
Lights:

flic.kr/p/wQETfT

Hatmen:

flic.kr/p/wQFKM4

flic.kr/p/wPqLHj

Officer:

flic.kr/p/vTa7vU

Probably should have done the belts black on the lights. Red waistcoats and shoulder wings doesn't pop that much as I expected. Probably should have done green feathers for lights also.

Sorry, took time to figure out how to post pics. Officer:

‌ Lights: Hatmen: ‌

Probably should have done the belts black on the lights. Red waistcoats and shoulder wings doesn't pop that much as I expected.

Actually, some of the line battalions wore black belts as well – the 20th and 24th, for sure.

The red waistcoats were actually a form of camouflage – the dullness of the red, plus the black belts, made light company men less obvious, especially in wooded areas where there was lots of shade.

I think I will revert to black belts on Lights. Up to day I have finished 12 Centre figures and 8 Lights. So not very much of a problem.

Very nice. If that officer has a facing color in his sash that should only be for sergeants.

Hehe. :) Thanks. Will correct too.

'andsome.

Speaking of sashes. Right now I still have plenty figures left in the box so I think I will make a unit of 6 green coated Torries. Let's say that Kings Royal Regiment of NY as SM suggested earlier. Since it's not clear when they traded green for red it fits perfectly to the period of Legers expedition along with 8th foot. So sashes. A sergeant wearing a green uniform will still have red sash with blue stripe?

If the unit has blue facings, yes. However, I think the KRRNY had red facings for most of their history, so a sergeant would have a solid red sash.

The re-enactment unit out of Canada is switching over to red facings, based in Don Troiani and Jim Kochan's research.

Hmmm, red facings, OK. I thought words "Kings" and "Royal" means blue. However maybe it's a Perry guide I think of again. There is a good webpage about them I should read. Thanks.

No, you're right – normally blue facings would be worn by a "Royal" regiment. However, when it came to equipping the Loyalists, especially in the early part of the war (prior to adopting red coats), the rules weren't always applied and units got whatever was available. Even after the transfer to red coats, the rules were still not applied universally – the King's American Regiment had olive green facings through to the end of the war, when they changed to blue after being taken onto the American Establishment. The Royal Garrison Battalion also had green; the Royal Fencible Regiment had black; the King's Orange Rangers had yellow; and the King's Carolina Rangers had green coats with crimson facings.

Both Loyalist regiments in Burgoyne's army – the King's and Queen's American Rangers – had red coats and green facings. Similarly, there were instances of non-Royal regiments wearing blue facings.

I know the King's Rangers re-enactment unit wear green coats faced red. According to the KRRNY, this was the most common wool shipped into the country early in the war. I have no specifics on King's Rangers.

link

link

I was thinking of Jessup's and Peters' corps.

It would be a lot easier to just purchase the Perry metals with the Saratoga caps. They have already done the research, so why reinvent the wheel?