"1794 Cuirassier Flag" Topic

This one is for von Winterfeldt who did these in 28mm recently…

I may have flags for the 4 Cavalerie (Cuirassiers)almost ready to go into production. You can see the 1st version on my blog here…

link

But before they are finished I have a couple of questions about these…

1) Is the text on the scrolls the same both sides?

2) How many pins attached the flag to the pole?

And also, this version has the Royalist emblems still visible, so I will do another with them patched over and/or removed.

Colin

Okay, first change… it should be an eight, not a four!

Oops.

Here is a good reference for Revolutionary Cavalry flags:

link

And a RIGO plate of the 9th Cavalry – post 370 & 371:

link

Thanks Camcleod, I have seen that website. The flags are ok but I'm not sure about the detailing around the edges.

I can't see the Rigo plates on that forum as you need to be registered.

And I have a spelling mistake on the flag.

Can't find the RIGO plate anywhere else on the web, but try this site.

link

It has a few sample plates from Charrie's 'Drapeaux et étendards de la Révolution et de l'Empire' that includes one from the 4th Cavalry.

Hi all,

Yes Eclipsing Binaries, you have a mistake in the text on the scroll : OBEISSANCE.
There're 2 different cavalry flags ("étendard" in french). Both have the same design but the 1791-1794 with royalist emblems and the 1794-1803 with revolutionary emblems. Good samples here :
link
Color varies according to the squadron number ("escadron") :
1st : white with tricolor border
2nd : red
3rd : blue
4th : green
5th : white with red border
6th : white with green border
From "Drapeaux et étandards" Pierre Charrié

Hecoma, those are the ones Camcleod linked to earlier, but thank you. I'll be doing flags for my Heavy Cav based on the later ones on that site.

Camcleod, I think I used the 4e Cavalerie one on that as reference. It looks much like the one that Von Winterfeldt sent to me. I've saved the other flags, so will do some of those as well at some point.

As for the squadron flags, if I were to build a 12 figure unit, only the command stand having a flag, am I right to assume the other squadrons are like infantry companies and just included in the unit without flags????

Each squadron had a standard – so in case you have 4 squadrons in the regiment, it would field 4 standards, you did the standard of the 1st squadron.
It would be nice to see the Rigo plate

this is the text part I sento to Eclipsing Binaries

any comments and additions would be welcome, the photos I sent also directly to colin

He can put them up on his web side – in case he likes to do it

Cavalry standards 1791 – 1803

To get some terminology as I use it for flag (general terminology to describe a piece of tissue from a pole)
Étendard – standard – square
Guidon – guidon – swallow tail end
Drapeau – colour – infantry colour

When the pole appears on the left end of the flag – front or obverse
When the pole appears on the right edge – rear or reverse

1791 – 1794
The distinctive colours are known thanks to the existence of a series of 6 standards of the 18e Chasseurs à Cheval
sqauadron colours, so 18e CaC carried 6 standards

1st – white with tricolor border / edge
2nd – red
3rd – blue
4th – green
5th – white with a red border
6th – white with a green border

All those distinctive colours are kept till 1803.
Mostly however – in the Revolutionary wars the units were not up to 6 squadrons, but less – as for example for the heavy cavalry regiments.
Heavy cavalry – cavalerie
In 1794 there were 24 regiments with 3 squadrons, in 1793 – 29 regiments with 4 squadron, after the emigration of 15th regiment (my favourite ci-devant Royal Allemands) – the numbers were renumbered what was 16th regiment became 15th and so on.
In 1796 the regiments are reduced to 3 squadrons and in 1799 the numbers are consolidated down to 25.
Standard Model 1791 – 94
Distributed between March and Mai 1792
So, those would be carried already in the 1792 campaign.
Information thankfully due to two surviving items of the 4th cavalry regiments, ex la Reine (the Queen) preserved in the Archives Nationales
1st squadron :
Dimensions 56 x 50 cm plus tricolor border of 11.5cm width, would give a total dimension of 67.6 x 61. 5 cm (according to Charriere)
According to Hollander, existing standard of 4th cavalry regiment – a square (carré) of 56 cm x 50 cm and the inner square 36 cm x 33 cm (photo supplied)
Inner white square with the golden number 4 surrounded by a wreath of golden laurel leaves, some small parts in silver (see photo).
Banderol / scroll – silver outline in black – letters in black capital letters, where the scroll is twisted – one can see a sort of red lining. (Charrie)
Now interesting the surviving item – as Hollander gives it, the scroll is silver edged in gold, while also the capital letters in the scroll are of gold also.
Also, what is most interesting the inner white is edged by a small golden line. One also is able to see the numerous pins by which the standard is attached to the pole.
I would go both in dimensions and details with Hollander for the standard of the 1st squadron.
At the top
DISCIPLINE / OBEISSANCE / A LA LOI
At the bottom
CAVALERIE
At the border to the tricolor band – leaves with 4 small and 4 big lilies, the small ones in the center of the square the big ones in the corners.
Those lilies had to be covers by a piece of cloth by the law of the 28th November of 1792.
Seemingly this piece of cloth went along with the bas colour of the standard, so white, then white cover, red – red cover, blue – blue cover etc.
Now thanks to some existing standards it is interesting to note, that not all lilies were covered – or simply that the patch fell off.
Also the carabineer standard (which was different in detail from those of the cavalry) had tricolor square patches and that at a surviving standard of Chasseurs à Cheval the lilies seemed to be just removed by opening the threads used for stitching (as to be seen in the work by Hollander – photo supplied).
No fringes – the pole is painted blue, the pique is gildended brass and of 18cm height, in the interior a broken through lily of 4 cm x 3 cm.
Silver cords intermixed with tricolor silk ending in two silver tassels, tricolor bands.
The reverse is identical.
3rd Squadron
Light blue silk – dimensions 53 cm x 50 cm
The decorations are identical as above – only that the laurel wreath running around the inner white square is running around the border of the standard.
In the centers an embroidered golden 4 edged with a thin border of black (to make a better contrast) and the silver scroll edged in gold with an even thinner black – this time the slogans with black capital letters (see photo)
The standard for the 2nd squadron would be red but with identical ornamentation.
It is interesting to observe that Rigo gives for the poles the colour of the standards, for 1st squadron in white – for second in red, and so on.
This is in contrast to Hollander which also shows tricolor design on some – while for 1st squadron of 4th cavalry Hollanders gives blue.

Standard Modell 1794 – 1803
In 1794 the regiments received standards with uniquely republican symbols and the symbols of tyranny were by that not any longer displayed (according to the word of Carnot).
Some of those are preserved in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris, that of the 11th regiment (1st squadron) and 15th and 18th regiments (4th squadron)
1st Squadron
Dimensions 48 cm x 41cm, white with tricolor border, in each angle a licteur bundle with a phyringian cap in tricolor. The edge of the standard is bordered with a sophisticated and very detailed stitching of small leaves and other symbols (see photo). In the center of each leaves border – on white ground a thunder symbol with red lightings / flames (look at photo) surrounded by a laurel wreath.
I give the quote in French, hopefully a French colleague can supply a better translation :
"Au milieu de chaque côté sur les quartiers blancs, un foudre ave éclairs rouges entouré d'une couronne de lauriers. »
In the center the regimental number in gold – surrounded by a wreath of gold laurel leaves (not RIGO shows green laurel leaves in his painting, photo supplied) , a scroll in silver, where twisted again some red lining can be seen – at the obverse, pole to the left.
The moto / slogan at the upper part DISCIPLINE / OBÈISSANCE/ A LA LOI and below CAVALERIE
At the reverse, identical but the moto at the top – RÉPUBLIQUE and below FRANÇAISE – the side parts of the scroll, I presume – empty.
Fringes in gold with 4,5 cm length.
The pole is blue, the pique / tip is solid – (not any longer any symbol of royalty).
4th squadron
Green silk, the dimensions are 48 cm x 46 cm, same ornamentation as for 1st squadron but with red phyringian caps and the fringes are gold and silver.
See also black and white photo, the thunderclap and lightning symbol – seemingly on white base / ground.
See also black and white photo of original, alas only in black and white – the central embroidery
2nd squadron would have red silk, 4th blue.

Sources :
Charrié, Pierre
Drapeaus & Etendards de la Révolution et de l'Empire, Paris 1982

Hollander, O : Nos Étendards de Cavalerie de 1791 – 1794, Paris 1896
Black and white photo of original 4th squadron of 18th cavalry regiment.
Rigo plates
Nr. 246 1er Carabiniers Étendards M 1791
Nr. 254 9e Cavalerie Étendards M 1791

For reconstruction as paper standards, I would like to go for "actual" representation of dimensions and not for the popular out of proportion blown up sizes so popular for most wargamers, I would opt for 1 / 58 scale

I'm away to wrap a cold towel around my head while I think all that through.

it is realy not that difficult – in case of any questions, don't hesitate to ask, with the material available it should be possible to do first class étendards either of 1791 or 1791 with supresed lilies or 1794, regardless of what squadron.