"wrong call by the editor?" Topic

Mito, What if you are born a hermaphrodite then? What reality do you advise?

Or XX male, or XXY male?

Mitochrondria, you seem to be arguing that being gay is a mental illness. Are you perhaps suggesting that they should be committed to asylums, or undertake treatment for this alleged condition?

Bill stop arguing semantics and state a position.

Stop abrogating your responsibilities – as a moderator/editor and as an employer.

My position?

TrenchRaider's stated opinion was not an attack. The editors were not offended.

I was never offended with that. People have lots of questions on how LGBT exist in this world. It's normal. Sometimes I do even ask myself where do I belong, but I know I was made with a great purpose.

"Mito, What if you are born a hermaphrodite then? What reality do you advise?"

Hermaphroditism is a physiological disorder and falls outside the scope of this discussion.

"Or XX male, or XXY male?"

XX male syndrome (also called de la Chapelle syndrome, for Albert de la Chapelle, who characterized it in 1972[1][2]) is a rare sex chromosomal disorder. From Wikipedia.

Klinefelter syndrome is the most common chromosomal disorder, and it occurs in 1:500 to 1:1000 live male births.[4][8] It is named after Harry Klinefelter who identified the condition in the 1940s.[9] In 1956 it was determined to be due to an extra X chromesome. From Wikipedia.

XX male and XXY male conditions are physiological disorders and fall outside the scope of this discussion.

"Mitochrondria, you seem to be arguing that being gay is a mental illness. Are you perhaps suggesting that they should be committed to asylums, or undertake treatment for this alleged condition? "

Finally, a question that is relevant.

Being LGBT is not a mental illness that should result in being committed to an asylum. We do not commit people who have bipolar disorder or depression.

Having a mental illness does not mean you are a raving lunatic who needs to be sedated while in your straitjacket.

You do know that people who are mentally ill have no choice in the matter, right? I am sure no one likes being sick.

Society has far too long stigmatized mental illness. We all suffer from some sort of mental illness at some time in our lives. It is really only a question of which type of illness and the degree that we are ill.

Much like a common cold is an illness as well as cancer. The difference is that one is much, much more serious.

It is possible to be mentally ill and not know it, much as it is possible to have cancer and not know it.

As to whether an LBGT should be prescribed treatment would be up to the individual. Certainly society should not attempt to drug (or treat in any fashion!) people who are no danger to themselves or others.

Hermaphroditism is a physiological disorder and falls outside the scope of this discussion.

No, it fits quite well in the scope of this discussion, since we are talking about people whose genitals do not fall within social expectations. Especially if there is a genetic reason for transgenderism.

I see no reason to try to find a gay gene or mental condition that explains why people are GLBT. The answer is to respect them as people just as we hope to be respected.

To return to my comments regarding my late friend Phil. He was gay but he wasn't at all mentally ill. I saw him a week or so before his death and he approached matters with fortitude, humour and courage. I know that I have failed to react to simple work related stress with such grace under pressure; arguably Phil was better mentally balanced than I am. It is an insult to his memory by suggesting he had mental issues.

I remain offended by anything other than accepting GLBT people for what they are and I am deeply uncomfortable that people wish to label them as mentally ill. I am even more uncomfortable that there are not more voices on TMP speaking against what is in my opinion thinly veiled bigotry.

Hello Don! That's exactly what I've been thinking. I thought it was just me who didn't follow it.

" being willfully obtuse over issues like Holocaust denialism or anti-LGBT bigotry?"

Obtuse? Moi?

Here is what I said about Holocaust deniers:

"I am among those who have no doubt that the holocaust happened. One of my favourite things to see in movies is seeing Nazis gunned down. I loved the end of Inglurious Basterds.

However I'm not against people being allowed to be holocaust deniers on this site. It is basically just an advertisement that they are an idiot. Then I know.

I can read something like "well, it could all be allied propaganda" or whatever it is they say and think to myself "Oh, there is someone that I probably shouldn't ever listen to."

It would be like banning flat-earthers. If someone is on here saying something like "well if Vallejo has a colour named flat earth, it can't be far from the truth" we will all know they are an idiot.

With some of you guys it is tough to tell at times whether you're an idiot or not.

If I read some holocaust denying nonsense, I would know for sure.

I say we give them the rope to hang themselves, or at least let them buy it."

Does that seem obtuse to you?

I'd guess that if it does, you might not understand that what I'm objecting to here is you belittling one group of people by claiming to defend another group.

It is literally this simple, listen:

If I said that all white people have blonde hair I might be right, I might be wrong but because having blonde hair is not something that is good or bad no one would say I was making a group attack.

To make it an attack there has to be a value judgement.

A judgement you and kyoteblue made when you judged a statement about people having mental illness as being an attack.

It is not wrong to struggle with mental illness.

You keep insisting that you haven't done anything wrong here and yet you have implied that it is wrong to have a mental illness thus the so-called "attack."

Let me be clear about what I think about people who are gay. I don't have a problem with it. I don't really care what people do.

I'm not going to judge them for it. I'm not going to judge mentally ill people for being mentally ill.

I'd rather see them get treatment.

You would, seemingly, rather judge them as being somehow morally inferior.

You have yet to actually deny that you believe that.

Also this:

"DNA is everywhere. It is the same no matter where the cell is located."

is not true.

Also if I have trouble getting customers with a stance that people shouldn't be judged because they are mentally ill and that I enjoy people being able to speak about their views then I lose them.

I'll just have to focus on my job at the museum.

And there you go with that willful obtuseness again.

So did we settle whether sexual attraction is a choice or a mental disorder?

And there you go with that willful obtuseness again.

He makes perfect sense to me. "Mental illness" is not an attack, it is a diagnosis. You may disagree with a diagnosis, though.

So did we settle whether sexual attraction is a choice or a mental disorder?

A third possibility is that aliens abduct and reprogram people into gays. That makes as much sense as the choice theory.

"Mental illness" is not an attack, it is a diagnosis.

So now Pictors Studio is a doctor?

He makes perfect sense to me.

Which explains your decisions in how you selectively enforce rules here.

Are you a geneticist?

Rebel – Maybe all humans are naturally gay but the aliens make some of them straight, for their breeding programs?

"So now Pictors Studio is a doctor?"

Actually I have been an organ procurement coordinator and I was able to order medications and testing for patients in the past. I had complete control over the treatment for those patients and was able to override what doctors wanted for them.

I also have an degree in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. As a former geneticist, I can affirm that rebelyell2006 is no geneticist.

And now I run a history museum. How about that?

Maybe he's an alien infiltrator too.

I'm amazed he can fit all of that in his schedule, since he is also a constitutional lawyer. He must be an alien. And don't try to contradict him on anything, because he'll magically become a licensed expert in that too! I'm amazed he even has time for his company.

Hello everyone!

Don Kyoteblue, I see that you think Bill does not understand and support ladyboys. Let me tell you my experience. Bill is a good boss to us editors. He is always understanding and accepting of us. He is very friendly, kind, and concerned about others. My friends are his friends also. And he also helps them. I don't see anything bad against him.

I'd rather not get involved in any tit-for-tat.

Besides, I don't know if any of you people are humans now.

Maybe all humans are naturally gay but the aliens make some of them straight, for their breeding programs?

Well, I know that some aliens are naturally grey…

I'm not offended when posters insult Jews or Muslims, but that doesn't mean it is right.

Oh, I'm sorry. I am new to the forums, and didn't mean to post twice.

It doesn't matter to me if someone thinks I am mentally ill. That is their opinion. I don't need defending. I do not feel insulted.

Bill supports the editors in the best way: with jobs. Good jobs. He accepts us for who we are.

"I'm amazed he can fit all of that in his schedule, since he is also a constitutional lawyer. He must be an alien. And don't try to contradict him on anything, because he'll magically become a licensed expert in that too! I'm amazed he even has time for his company."

To be fair I don't spend most of my time on the internet playing , so that frees up a lot of time to get a job in the museum field.

"Editor(s) Dianna you do not think TrenchRaider and others who share his opinion are wrong and where very rude to Editor(s)Julia ??"

This thread isn't about whether TrenchRaider is wrong or not. This is about whether he launched a group attack.

I don't think being wrong is against the forum rules yet.

It seems more likely that rebelyell2006 and you were launching the group attacks.

It is subtle bigotry against people with mental illness but, as I said before, that is the worst kind.

I dont think we ladyboys have a mental illness . We are human and have a brain. We know what we are doing. The fact is, we ladyboys are the ones who feed and support our families.

As for Julia, she says she was not offended, and I believe her.

This would make a hell of a play if I just changed all your names and wrote it down.

It seemed to me that TrenchRaider was making a personal attack on Editor(s)Julia and a group attack against LGBT people in general and the LBGT Editor(s)

Don, you don't seem to have an open mind.

Julia and Dianna both told you they didn't feel attacked.

I've told you that I don't think it was an attack.

Now others here have told you they don't think it was an attack.

Maybe, just maybe, you're wrong this time?

TrenchRaider gave an opinion which you disagree with. But that's not an attack, that's a disagreement.

Wow, this just couldn't get any better I suppose.

Now it's well known that Rebel is a ("I'm not offended when posters insult Jews or Muslims,…" – I'm sure you're not), but it's really sickening to see how far two men, whom I used to respect and thought were folks that could leave political agendas behind long enough to discuss wargaming, have pushed this.

This whole thread is disgusting and has no place on a wargaming site, and I can't help but think that was the whole point. I don't understand it, but these weird dust-ups that periodically occur on TMP are almost always started by someone who says, on another website, something along the lines of "TMP is all ed up, people don't talk about wargaming over there, they're inhabited by all sorts of rude cretins, I'm glad we don't have that here."

And then they come here and exercise their (usually) longstanding TMP membership (often as not they are actually supporting members) to start the most ridiculous of fights, on topics that couldn't possibly get any further from wargaming, just for the hell of it. And then they drag it out and drag it out and drag it out a little more, and when the complaints don't stick, hell, let's just keep making new up until we troll someone long enough that they lose their cool and say something untoward.

But that's not where we finish, no, not by a long shot. We can't let it finish until we have denigrated both Americans and Christians, just to show how tolerant we are, because Lord knows Americans and Christians (~300 million of the former, ~2 billion of the latter) are monolithic groups that can be counted on to all see things the same way.

It might come to you as some surprise, as I don't mention it on the internet on a wargaming forum, but I'm actually an American AND a Christian. But according to you internet beacons of courage (because you're doing nothing if not standing up for the disenfranchised, despite the fact the disenfranchised personally affected keep telling you to shove off, right?) and tolerance (more on that below), I am:
-Ignorant
-War-mongering
-Unenlightened/Illiberal (in the classic sense)
-Racist
-Bigoted

Ah, , I'm sure I'm leaving some out, but I don't need to tell you guys that, you wrote the book.

Regarding the topic at hand, what are my thoughts on LGBT? Ordinarily I'd say none of your ing business. But just for fun, I'll throw it out there. What do I think of LGBT? Nothing, I don't think anything of them, they're people just like everyone else. I mentioned I'm a Christian, so they are definitely sinners, but then again so am I, so is everyone I know, as well as all the folks I've never met. I know you can't comprehend this, but there's no judging as they're only one that's ever lived that was without sin.

I get that you guys were hoping I'd say they were going to burn in hell; it may surprise you that that's actually not how 99.9% of Christians think. I'm not saying they won't; that's all dependent upon their own relationship with the Lord, not what you or I or anyone else thinks, so they have every bit as good a chance as anyone else.

But you're so intolerant that you just can't see that, you've convinced yourselves you've got us all figured out. I'm not an evangelist, but I'd recommend you at least take a look yourself, but it seems to me the real issue is that most (all?) of you haven't actually seen what evil looks like, so you just have to make up a boogie-man so that you can have an evil enemy to fight from behind your computer screens in the comfort of your air-conditioned homes…

So I don't have anything against LGBT folks and don't give a what they do one way or the other; my interactions with said folks, as with pretty much everyone not in my immediate family, are utterly unremarkable. But me mentioning the family has got to be hilarious to you guys, if not mind blowing: I'm the proud father of three little "mixed-race"* children, as I'm married to a woman that's not only a different race, but a different religion! Holy , how do I possibly manage to survive in Texas, surrounded by all these other American Christians?

*Please note that I added 'mixed race' for you tolerant folks, as I know that's how you see the world; to us they're just kids.

It could be a brave new world, not matching anything like what you've got in your head, if you were willing to actually talk to an American Christian, AND THEN form an opinion, rather than form your opinion and shout them down, twisting their words to fit what you were hoping they said so you could prove your internet bravery. And if you guys don't think that's what happened here, I dare to take a look at the 300+ posts in these nine pages of comments.

Keep in mind that there are thousands of regular folks on TMP that ignored this all together, probably (I dunno) a hundred that read this crap and didn't say a word); then realize that you had an American Christian say something that could really you off if you were looking to really be ed off awhile ago on a dead thread, which was carried forward with (I'm guessing) the specific intent to stir up on TMP, and then look after that: a couple American Christians make cameo appearances (I'm not including Pictors, I don't know anything about him), the rest is all tolerance mongers shouting at people that you're not right unless you think what they think, followed by insults to American Christians (replete with the usual strawman about Nazis rounding up people; that train ain't never late), followed by the inevitable echo chamber where you assure yourselves that you're morally superior, that no matter how far you stretched the original comments you've won a major civil rights battle.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you guys are really trying to accomplish, but I know what you have accomplished: you've spewed forth intolerant which only serves to further divide the members here on TMP. So run along back to the 'other' wargaming websites and pat yourselves on the back about how the other sites aren't as bad as TMP, despite the fact that YOU are TMP. I know this will probably sound quaint, but you guys really should be ashamed of your behavior here.

pretty harsh labelling everyone sinners and – they/we are only sinners in the outlook of your particular religion, you know, that could be seen as a group attack….

anyway, this is the first time I've been able to post on here since I was DH for what was reported as a personal attack on Trenchraider.

what I did write on another site when I heard about this was
'my DH'ing was fair, was a comment in frustration at being tarred with the same brush, I've no complaint against Bill about it. nothing personal against trenchraider either, don't know the gentleman.'

now, I still don't have anything against Trenchraider or others here I've not met, but there are some whose views, including his, I find abhorrent or their general attitude I dislike so I ignore or stifle them. the comment I made was at the time annoyance that anyone who may be on Frothers is often labelled negatively, and as we know on both sites, some can't/won't let it go for whatever reasons.
there were(are) lots I do stifle for these reasons, and I am man enough to say at one stage I did have RebelYell stifled as I thought (incorrectly it would now seem) that his views were ones I dislike, however, I have since had my mind changed, and no, it's not because he started a thread saying it was harsh / a wrong call. Although, thank you Rebelyell
In fact, a lot of people on here have surprised me with their opinions – in a good way. unfortunately there are also a lot more I'll now stifle – to me this site is grey boxes more and more often. I'll also do my best not to read TMPTalk (or at least not comment ) and stick to the hobby areas.
Don, I'm on facebook in you want to chat.

TrenchRaider gave an opinion which you disagree with. But that's not an attack, that's a disagreement.

Bigotry does not break the rules when it is an opinion? That is not a good precedent, Bill.

Rebel, you are talking in circles…

Bigotry: "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself."

"Bigotry is a state of mind where a person obstinately, irrationally, unfairly or intolerantly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. Some examples include personal beliefs, race, religion, national origin, gender, disability, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other group characteristics."

So who decides the parameters of this irrationality and unfairness?

Rebel, you yourself have said a couple of times that anyone who believe in a god are irrational and deny science.

So is that an opinion? Or a group attack against anyone believing in a g/God? Or bigotry (towards religious people?)

The Editor decides because it is his site and he sets the rules.

Right back to square one.

So what you are saying, Mardaddy, is that I am the real bigot for not tolerating other peoples' bigotry?

Bigotry does not break the rules when it is an opinion? That is not a good precedent, Bill.

It is only bigotry because you are judging his intent.

If it isn't bigotry, then it is mind-numbing ignorance, out of place in the world of the internet.

Lets see what does with that.

Wow Just Jack has pulled the classic "No True Scotman" logical fallacy in spades!

link

Glad to know that we can't call out the True 'Merkin Christians (tm) on TMP.

Also really pleased that all the legislation enacted at a state level and in the House of Representatives, aimed at weakening the protection of the GLBT community in the US has originated from all those Atheists, Muslims, Satanists, Buddhists, Hindus and Unitarians who comprise the US legislatures and not those poor oppressed True 'Merkin Christians (tm) like here.

If it isn't bigotry, then it is mind-numbing ignorance, out of place in the world of the internet.

Because he holds a certain opinion, in your mind he must be either a bigot or an idiot?

You are the judgmental and intolerant one, aren't you?

I'm finding it hard to keep track of who believes what on this thread, and will probably regret this, but in response to Bill's last comment/question, I would say that someone who opines that LGBT people are 'mentally ill' IS a bigot or an idiot, occupying much the same category as holocaust deniers.

And I have no problem in being considered both judgemental and intolerant of . And quite relieved that so many members of TMP clearly feel the same and haven't let this issue rest, despite the somewhat inexplicable stance adopted by the EiC.

Because he holds a certain opinion

An opinion that is based either on ignorance or bigotry. Like holding the opinion that the world is flat, or time exists in harmonious simultaneous four days.

You are the judgmental and intolerant one, aren't you?

So I'm the real bigot for not tolerating his bigotry?

From UCAL Davis

In 1973, the weight of empirical data, coupled with changing social norms and the development of a politically active gay community in the United States, led the Board of Directors of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). Some psychiatrists who fiercely opposed their action subsequently circulated a petition calling for a vote on the issue by the Association's membership. That vote was held in 1974, and the Board's decision was ratified.

The American Psychological Association (APA) promptly endorsed the psychiatrists' actions, and has since worked intensively to eradicate the stigma historically associated with a homosexual orientation (APA, 1975; 1987).

Some psychologists and psychiatrists still hold negative personal attitudes toward homosexuality. However, empirical evidence and professional norms do not support the idea that homosexuality is a form of mental illness or is inherently linked to psychopathology

Ref link

An opinion that is based either on ignorance or bigotry. Like holding the opinion that the world is flat, or time exists in harmonious simultaneous four days.

Or maybe he just disagrees with you?

That's your real intolerance – if someone believes differently that you do, you think they must either be dumb or have an agenda.

Karl Popper, one of the most famous philosophers of the 20th century:

If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. . . We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

That's your real intolerance – if someone believes differently that you do, you think they must either be dumb or have an agenda.

We aren't debating our favorite Napoleonic regiment, we are talking about blatantly false statements about minorities rooted in bigotry and/or willful ignorance.

So tomorrow I am working on some BTR-50's…..What about you guys?

We aren't debating our favorite Napoleonic regiment, we are talking about blatantly false statements about minorities rooted in bigotry and/or willful ignorance.

There you go again…

Regardless of whether the statement is true or false, you have no idea what it is "rooted" in.

You insist on demonizing someone who you disagree with.

Regardless of whether the statement is true or false

The factuality most definitely matters, especially when it is a frequent talking point used by groups that demonize LGBT people for political reasons.

The factuality most definitely matters, especially when it is a frequent talking point used by groups that demonize LGBT people for political reasons.

Neither of those points matters.

Maybe he's just a nice guy who happens to be wrong (in your opinion)? Isn't that a possibility?