"wrong call by the editor?" Topic

I know quite a few gay people and none of them woke up one morning and said to themselves: "I know, today I am going to become part of a misunderstood minority that many people around the world hate and some like to beat up and kill. After all, that is so much more fun than being straight."

People who think it is a choice really need to ask themselves when they chose not to be gay.

Well, since some people who are gay say that it was a choice for them, shouldn't their opinions be respected, too?

One size does not fit all.

Hey Bill, why did you DH Londongamer? He was just expressing an opinion.

He broke forum rules by using a vulgar term.

He broke forum rules by using a vulgar term.

So vulgar statements that are group attacks against minorities are acceptable, but vulgar statements that are not group attacks against minorities are not acceptable? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

There is nothing in that or any other of his statements that infers that transgender people have a "condition" or a mental illness, so your claim that he said that is inaccurate and should be retracted.

Logic says that there must be a change in the mind/brain, right?

I also wonder why you pulled him up over dogmatism but not Irish Marine for the very dogmatic statement to which Rebelyell was responding:

"As I said before you are born straight, if you choose to be different that's up to you,"

A tad one-sided of you perhaps?

Irish Marine is also wrong. If you read my other website, then you will see that most Filipino transsexuals – or "ladyboys," as most call themselves – identified as female from as early as they can remember.

I've only heard of one exception to that, so far.

So vulgar statements that are group attacks against minorities are acceptable…

Of course not.

Well, since some people who are gay say that it was a choice for them, shouldn't their opinions be respected, too?

They didn't choose to be attracted to people of the same sex, as much as they choose to be normal human beings who act on their sexual attractions. They didn't choose to be gay, they just chose not to be celibate.

Unless you are referring to bisexual people.

Of course not.

Then why didn't you DH TrenchRaider and a bunch of other people in this thread?

Logic says that there must be a change in the mind/brain, right?

No, there isn't a change, their brains and bodies just develop that way in the womb.

Bill, let me get this right. You seem to wish to be supportive of LGBT people, a wish that is not overwhelmingly displayed here or so it appears. You then disagree with Londongamers comment that none of his gay acquaintances chose to be gay. That comment was supportive of LGBT people but you decide to criticise it because it doesn't address all gay people.

Are you deliberately trying to alienate people who would support your point of view?

No, there isn't a change, their brains and bodies just develop that way in the womb.

Right, a way which you said was not "typical." Which means there is a difference… a change.

And we're talking brains, right? Because gay people's bodies are not different from other people's bodies, are they?

My dim brain has just realised the allegedly vulgar term in question. This is insane. It is a commonly used word in the UK, both as a mild insult and also a jokey expression between mates. Londongamer was using it to illustrate the differences in humour between us Brits and Americans. If you think that is vulgar you really need to get out more

They didn't choose to be attracted to people of the same sex…

You are too dogmatic. link

British lesbian writer and campaigner Julie Bindel has defended her assertion that being gay is a choice.

The 52-year-old journalist believes she made a ‘conscious and happy choice to be a lesbian' more than 30 years ago because she had ‘better taste than other young women'…

Bindel claims the reason why many more people feel homosexuality is innate is because ‘we internalise doctrine – we are told constantly we are born that way'…

If you think that is vulgar you really need to get out more

Google says it is "vulgar slang."

Are you deliberately trying to alienate people who would support your point of view?

My point that TrenchRaider was not making an attack on anyone?

Round and round and round it goes.
Where it stops no one knows.

Right, a way which you said was not "typical." Which means there is a difference… a change.

A difference does not mean a change.

My point that TrenchRaider was not making an attack on anyone?

And our point is that he did. And that you are coddling anti-LGBT bigotry on this website.

And how about the rest of the article, Bill:

But even though she asserts being gay is a choice, she confusingly states she did not choose to be gay herself.

‘I needed to leave home…pursue my feminist possibilities, that meant starting a new life and all that was open to me,' Bindel said

‘I fell in with a crowd [in Leeds] who spoke about lesbianism as part of women's liberation. I never chose to be attracted to women.'

But when asked why she believes being gay is a choice, she said: ‘Because I think the opposite of having an innate, biological explanation [for homosexuality] – there's no evidence for that – has to be some kind of choice, as well as some deep-rooted, embedded responses that developed through different experiences in our childhood.'

Bindel claims the reason why many more people feel homosexuality is innate is because ‘we internalise doctrine – we are told constantly we are born that way'.

When asked to consider places in Cameroon and Uganda, where people are oppressed for being gay, she said:

‘All I know is I've never been convinced by a scientific argument, or seen any evidence that is compelling that there is something innate about our sexuality.

‘What I'm suggesting is, there are people who could go one way or the other and happily choose to be lesbian or gay.'

This is not the first time the lesbian writer has come up against the mainstream opinion of the LGBT community.

In 2004, she wrote an infamous rant about transgender people claiming ‘men disposing of their genitals…does not make them women' and mocking trans women for ‘-me shoes and birds-nest hair'.

After a severe backlash, she apologized for the tone of the article and now describes it as ‘plain wrong'.

Sure sounds like she is in denial about lesbianism being an inherent trait. And has a touch of bigotry against transgender people. Not a reliable narrator.

Don, I think he's saying the The W Word is the vulgar term, the M word has I guess fallen foul of some firm of auto censorship.

Steady there Don, I'd not be surprised if bastard is a vulgar term?

Here here. Looking at the context of the alleged personal attack, it looks to me like a good old accusation of being a Walter, ie making it all up. A common expression in the British Forces. Another example of how Brit and American sensibilities are poles apart.

So, yes, Londongamer has been fitted up as they say.

A difference does not mean a change.

difference: a point or way in which people or things are not the same

change: the act or instance of making or becoming different

(source: Google definitions)

difference: a point or way in which people or things are not the same

change: the act or instance of making or becoming different

So? XY men, XX men, and XXY men are all different, but there isn't a change.

…but there isn't a change.

Then what happened to the chromosomes you were talking about? They're all identical?

Then what happened to the chromosomes you were talking about? They're all identical?

The same way XY men and XX women develop: mitosis.

1. whats MS Words

Microsoft word….
Here's a link you can learn all about it….

products.office.com/en-us/word

and does my 200.00 dollar minilaptop have that….

I don't know…check your programs and see…or better yet…find someone that know how to do basic functions on a laptop and teach you how to do it, or write some very simple easy to use instructions.

Um touch screen no idea how to cut paste on it…As I have said my computer skills are not so much…

RTFM!!!!

Really, it's not that hard……

The same way XY men and XX women develop: mitosis.

So if there is a genetic basis for transgenderism, that would mean that transgendered people were genetically different from other people, that a change had taken place. Correct?

Science and medically correct words are real…even if we can't say them on TMP.

If you want to change the rules, you know what the process is… and whining is not that process.

So if there is a genetic basis for transgenderism, that would mean that transgendered people were genetically different from other people, that a change had taken place. Correct?

No, because mitosis is not change.

It isn't anything contact, because it is prison rape.

Are you arguing that all sex in prison is rape???

No, because mitosis is not change.

Then your theory makes no sense.

It seems with all things people have made a choice; Choose to be gay or straight (that's right I believe it's a choice) same with this transgender business it's a choice., prove me wrong.

Maybe you should read this… link

Are you arguing that all sex in prison is rape???

Not at all, but most of it is interactions of power and dominance.

Then your theory makes no sense.

All we are comes from how the zygote forms and splits into a new organism that becomes a fetus. Our chromosomes and our DNA result from the interaction between sperm and ovum and the subsequent mitosis. There's no change, it is inherent to our existence. Sexual orientation, hair color, etc., all fit in there somewhere, spread out through many different genes. It is just a matter of figuring out which ones.

"RY didn't insult mental illness, he said that calling transexuals a mental illness was insulting to transexuals. "

See that is where subtle bigotry comes in.

Rebelyell2006 said that it was a group attack to say that someone has a mental illness.

That is the same as saying that having a mental illness is bad or wrong.

I can understand why this is difficult for people who have a bias against people with mental illness to understand.

So when Rebelyell2006 says that someone made an attack against people he means that they belittled them.

If that person said those people were jerks or s maybe he would have a point. Those are inherently negative terms.

But what rebelyell2006 is saying is that having a mental illness is bad because he is equating saying someone has a mental illness with an attack.

It is very subtle, but as with subtle racism it is often the most dangerous kind.

It is not dissimilar to the South Park where Cartman apologizes to Kyle for calling Kyle a "jew." Kyle points out that he is a "jew" to which Cartman responds by saying that Kyle shouldn't be so hard on himself.

Cartman is lacking an understanding of what he is doing. He is actually trying to be supportive but by doing so he is actually being insulting.

Same thing with rebelyell2006. I don't doubt that his intentions are good. He is trying to stick up for people who he feels are being attacked.

But the fact that he thinks they are being attacked when someone says they have a mental illness is insulting to those who struggle with mental health issues.

The whole thing shows a subtle bigotry towards people with mental illnesses.

"All we are comes from how the zygote forms and splits into a new organism that becomes a fetus. Our chromosomes and our DNA result from the interaction between sperm and ovum and the subsequent mitosis. There's no change, it is inherent to our existence."

This is interesting. So you would say we are the people that we will become as soon as sperm and egg meet?

All we are comes from how the zygote forms and splits into a new organism that becomes a fetus. Our chromosomes and our DNA result from the interaction between sperm and ovum and the subsequent mitosis. There's no change, it is inherent to our existence. Sexual orientation, hair color, etc., all fit in there somewhere, spread out through many different genes. It is just a matter of figuring out which ones.

So you are saying that your sexual identity comes from the biology? How is that different from what TrenchRaider said? He said it is something in the brain, right?

How is that different from what TrenchRaider said?

He said it was an abnormal behavioral/psychological condition. I'm saying sexual orientation is an integral, permanent attribute of a person that cannot be changed or removed, like skin tone or ethnicity.

The whole thing shows a subtle bigotry towards people with mental illnesses.

Do you really think you will find new customers and patrons by being willfully obtuse over issues like Holocaust denialism or anti-LGBT bigotry?

Bill, do me a favour. Let's end this debate; please make a clear and unambiguous statement to the effect that it does not matter why a person is GLBT and that it is wrong to be prejudiced against anyone because of their sexuality.

I really don't believe this place some times. Words fail me.

+1 artaxerxes

+2

He said it was an abnormal behavioral/psychological condition. I'm saying sexual orientation is an integral, permanent attribute of a person that cannot be changed or removed, like skin tone or ethnicity.

And you said it was not "typical" – and presumably this "integral, permanent attribute" is in the mind/brain, correct? I am just trying to show you that you are very close to TrenchRaider's position, just different words.

please make a clear and unambiguous statement to the effect that it does not matter why a person is GLBT and that it is wrong to be prejudiced against anyone because of their sexuality.

I think everyone agrees on that.

+1 Goonfighter.

Bill stop arguing semantics and state a position.

Stop abrogating your responsibilities – as a moderator/editor and as an employer.

All of us have DNA. All of us are different. All of us have different DNA, are designed to be different. That is why we are not all identical. Those differences are a function of design. They also demonstrate a range of variation within the design parameters. Some of those differences can be modified by environment during development, i.e., chemicals, physical imposition, and/or behavior. But, all modifications are limited by the basic design.

Difference does not mean change. Different means not the same. In the case of humans, due to DNA, difference is by design, not due to change from an intended design.

The Editor has offered that he has not dawghoused someone, because there was no intent to offend, he judged the the person in question did not cross a tolerable line with respect to the rules of this forum. I respect that, and appreciate that he attempts to embrace the intent of the post. I would offer that that his attempt to say Rebelyell's and Trenchraider's comments are "very close" to being the same position, is a misrepresentation of the intent of each persons comments and contrary to his approach to the potentially "offending" post.

I think that their comments are better represented by the following; one believes the transgender people behave in a manner indicative of mental illness, that their behavior is unhealthy, outside the limits of normal healthy behavior. The other believes that transgender people behave in a natural and healthy manner that is simply within the normal range of human variation.

I do not see those views as being the same. I also suggest that nothing is gained by trying to find "loopholes" in our statements here, and using them to argue that we have stated other than what our intent is. The forum is a mechanism that promotes brief posts, without limitless qualification of inclusion and exclusion. If we have to make every effort to qualify our intent in these posts, every post will read like tax code. Sort of like what I'm doing now. I can't imagine that we want that.

I want to thank Irish Marine for helping me find the solution to a problem that I've been trying to work through.

I have a friend that is transgender, overly simplified by expressing the person as being born anatomically male, but with a brain that is female.

I have struggled with whether or not an anatomically male person presenting themselves as female was an act of deception.

Then Irish Marine mentioned here about how transgender people are processed, based on their anatomical appearance. The system identifies them by their genitalia, not there brain, not on the organ that defines who they are, that defines the essences of the being. And I readily realized that the system is wrong in how they handle these people. It is the brain that defines who we are.

Like the system, I was too focused on the external anatomy, not the organ that defines the person. I now realize that there is no deception. So to Irish Marine, I offer my thanks, for showing me my error, and clearing up my problem for me.

Wow!
Long string.

And you said it was not "typical" – and presumably this "integral, permanent attribute" is in the mind/brain, correct?

DNA is everywhere. It is the same no matter where the cell is located.

Apparently we are all experts here.

This thread is positive proof of the old maxim: "Opinions are like s. Everybody has one. "

Heh heh. I almost evaded the Bleep-o-Matic by misspelling the bleeped word. That would have given me a few days in the cooler.

Memo to Editor:
DH everybody who had posted more than five times on this thread. Pour encourager les autres. No real excuse needed.

When a perception is in direct opposition to reality, that is mental illness.

If you have a and you think you are a girl you have a perception in opposition to reality.

Being mentally ill does not make you a bad or terrible person.

We all are, in our own way suffering from some type of mental illness.

People have a fundamentally backwards view on mental illness. You don't think less of someone with a cold or lupus. Why would you think the same thing of someone with a mental illness?