"wrong call by the editor?" Topic

There were plenty of studies to support its removal.

link

A pretty thorough rundown of the various research into the subject which I am pretty confident exceeds the empirical research done by 100% of TMP'ers on the topic.

Maybe we can bring back skull-measuring to determine whether someone is disposed towards criminality as well.

"Just don't try to make non-believers adhere to your beliefs."

This is literally exactly what you are doing. TrenchRaider isn't making anyone adhere to his beliefs. He is just stating them.

My comment was in reference to a response to a response to a comment about wedding cakes, Pictors Studio.

Maybe we can all agree on the need for a proper quote function and conversation threading.

In any event, I am done with this for the night.

I'm going to go have a beer and play some Destiny.
Probably listen to the new At the Gates album from last year, since I just realized today it had been released.

Maybe we can bring back skull-measuring to determine whether someone is disposed towards criminality as well.

Genius.

I knew my Masters degree in Phrenology would pay off one day.
I do have an excellent record of achievement over the years.
60% of the time I am 100% correct.

It is quite clear that TrenchRaider made an direct attack on the transexual editors, which should have resulted in being sent to the DH.

He described them as transvestites, which is an insulting term to a transexual,and described them as being mentally ill.

If those are not personal attacks, I am not sure what are.

It is very clear that what passes for moderation on TMP is far from evenly or fairly applied, that the rules are not actually rules, and that the chief editor is not protecting the rights of his employees (Are they actually employees? Do they have contracts?)

Well, I think the subject matter is a bit more difficult than that.

Please consider the FULL quote:

I'm a political and social conservative. I'm not a Neo-Nazi or anything of that sort. But I'm far enough right to be considered "non-mainstream" by most people. So no, I'm not ok with Armintrout exclusively hiring Asian transvestites to edit the site. I'm against the general effort to "normalize" what I see to be a form of mental illness. So I'm not down with his other site and it's agenda. It's the reason that on the handful of occasions I have needed to, I refuse to use the pronoun "she" when referring to an editor.

But my personal views on the issue do not enter in to it one bit. You see, I learned the useful skill of "separating the art from the artist" long ago. TMP is TMP and the other site is the other site. Aside from the owner, there is no real cross-over. I'm here for the subject of TMP: wargaming and the gaming community. I'm not here for social and political issues.

Now if Armintrout were to use TMP as a soapbox to push his other site or it's agenda, I would have an issue with that. It would probably cause me to stop reading TMP. But he doesn't, so it's not a problem. See how that works? I judge the site on it's actual content, not my thoughts about the owner.

The content of this post is a little more subtle and I have a hard time to judge if he actually attacks anyone personally here.

1.) He is explicitly stating his opinion. There is a substential difference between saying "I consider transsexuality a mental illness" and saying "transsexuality is a mental illness" – number one is an opinion and clearly distinguishable from the second phrase.

2.) On the other hand, he is clearly using language that I would consider past borderline – including "transvestites" and the "mental illness" issue. If someone was saying "I believe black skin is an abnormal mutation" he´d very likely face a crowd of outraged people screaming racist – and rightly so!

3.) The second paragraph, that was not initially cited in this thread, moderates these statements somewhat. It does not appear to be the writing of an intolerant bigot. To the contrary, staying here for the gaming content despite the disagreement on the political issue is a prime example of tolerance, in my opinion. As such, he does seem to be able to separate the "professional" role of the editors from his personal disagreement with their sexual orientation.

4.) Following on from that, I believe that he does not treat them with the required professional respect by referring to them with the pronoun they do not wish to be attributed with. If – for whatever reason – they want to be treated as females, he should do so or avoid the subject altogether.

My personal verdict, which is a very difficult decision, would probably come down to the following:

-I would not judge TrenchRaider guilty of a direct attack based on the post above as he is clearly stating his opinion on the general subject – so I would not dish out severe punishment.

-However, he is acting in a disrespectful manner and should receive a definitive warning based on points 2 and 4 with punishment if such things happens again in the future. He should seriously reconsider the use of certain phrases that might be considered insulting to certain minority groups!

I´d also advise the Editor(s) to regulate political debates on TMP based on very strict and transparent guidelines. This a gaming forum, nothing good can come out of such discussions on the internet, as seen above. Keep the debate out of TMP and create a clear ruleset that you can stick to. Otherwise I fear these political issues will be the end of TMP sooner or later.

Disclaimer: I consider myself on the liberal left-wing side of european (!) policy spectrum, i.e. I´m a radical communist for american standards :P.
I do not share TrenchRaiders personal opinions on the subject but I did not interpret his post as being a personal attack or aggressive.

Bill – you don't feel that deliberately misgendering a transgender person is an attack on your employee?

TMP policy has been that if a person edits their post before the moderators see it, there is no punishment – since we didn't witness the infraction.

Dear Editor(s) you did know The LGBT Editor(s) where LGBT before you hired them ????

Say what?

Lagartija Mike is back.
Phasers in Full Blast.

TMP policy has been that if a person edits their post before the moderators see it, there is no punishment – since we didn't witness the infraction.

Is the original post not quoted to you when someone hits the complaint button?

Well let's see…..
(On this site, and others…):

1: I've been accused of "Stalking someone at a former job", because she was one of the individuals in a comically failing corporate office that I used to work at in my "Tales from Work", stuff.

2: Per previous point, I've also been accused of stalking someone that I haven't physically seen or had contact with in over 30 years….

3: I've been accused of being "an anti-semite", despite the fact that a former fiancee of mine was first generation Jewish-American, whose parents immigrated here from Israel in the 1960's, (after they relocated there after WWII, and having barely survived the hell known as "The Warsaw Ghetto")….

4: I've been accused of being a "racist", "anti-black", etc…because I use an ANV Regimental battle flag as my avatar next to my name, despite the fact that I have explained "Why" I use it…and despite the fact that I've dated and had inter-racial relationships.

5: And to top it all of…I'm perhaps the only person that most of you will ever know (if the "only one"), that has been accused of racism due to "my treatment and portrayal of fictional people in an imaginary African country"….

Even after all this time, I have yet to push the stifle button, or the complaint button on someone, anyone, (even Mac and Bob, both of whom I think suffer from serious forms of mental illness). Instead I realize that no matter how hard I try, some people will never change, and indeed if you complain about it, some folks take an almost obscene, perverse pleasure in knowing that they've gotten under your skin, and as a result will continue to do so.

Plus the fact that I think that "If I get offended so easily, then maybe the internet is not for me"…..

Here's the deal folks (and take it or leave it, it makes no matter to me):
If a person says that "whatever someone says doesn't offend them, then they are either A: Not offended, B: Learned that others don't/won't understand or accept and thus have learned to handle such comments, opinions, etc, C: Don't care, or D: Are lying about it.

In this case with the editor in name, I would say probably option A or B:

The idea that some folks are arguing "for a person to be offended", is ludicrous….

And no Dear Editor(s) I will not let this go. I did before but not now. I now have a personal reason one of my Grand Daughters has come out as LGBT, tonight.

So in other words….This issue didn't affect you in any way, shape, or form whatsoever, and/or didn't even cross your mind in any substantial form enough for you to discuss it here, until you had a personal reason (direct family issue), and thus, as a result, you "now feel" that this affects you, as well as us all now???….

And this is how it starts…(well one of the ways…)

"My comment was in reference to a response to a response to a comment about wedding cakes, Pictors Studio."

Whatever it is a response to, you are still trying to make non-believers adhere to your beliefs.

Equality for all.

I'm starting to wonder Don, if you get some of your quotes here from Stephanie McMilann, (the artistically challenged creator of "Minimum Security")….

I fully support equality for men, women and transgenders to live and love as they please. As well as the able to marry who the love regardless of old-fashion mores.

Really?
So you support the idea of 40 year old men marrying 10 year old girls because "they are in love"?….
You support some of the quacked ideas that is going on out there to support "equality"?….

Wow…unbelievable….

A person can hold a belief system that may be the majority/ minority opinion and that some could interpret as bigoted. It's what he/she does with it.

Cyrus, as someone living in Indiana (the state that passed the much ado about nothing RFRA that 90% of the people got wrong and 99% of the people angry about it never read the thing), let me also add that it's not only that, but that it's also (in this day and age), "…what people will perceive that you may or may not do with it…

For example, a gay couple wants to get married and contacts a baker for a wedding cake. He or she is opposed to same sex marriages, but as a baker, who takes pride in their work, provides a first class wedding cake.
Another scenario, the baker could refuse citing a booked schedule and no one would know their personal beliefs.
It's only when someone cites a belief in public and acts according to that belief that society might draw the conclusion of bigotry.

Well, if any of you had been to the FB Gencon Indy forums page, you would have seen just how quacked out this got, as perceptions about Indy and Gencon went straight off the rail and into the realm of the absurd.
But instead of using the cake shop, how about "a pizza parlor?"….

90% of social issues aren't caused by what happens but by peoples perceptions….
A glance at some of the opinions and statements posted on this page is a good example.

Is the original post not quoted to you when someone hits the complaint button?

No.

So yesterday I did say I was done with the thread. Against my better judgment, I've changed my mind. I'm going to poke my head back in briefly and make a few quick points. You know what they say about never saying "never". ;-)

In any event, in no particular order:

-The sudden mid-thread direction change is quite telling. This thread all started out being about my using the phrase "take out the trash" in regards to a troll post I reported. Armintrout came in and pretty much put the comment about that to bed by agreeing that I was not using it as an insult. When it became clear that this line of attack was not going to be productive, the members of the lynch mob shifted gears and started expressing outrage…(OUTRAGE I SAY!!!!111!!) about something that was said in passing a week ago. It's pretty clear (at least to my mind) that this is not about the content of a week old post, but is an effort to try to "get" me on something…anything. It's the scattershot approach. Trying everything in hopes to get something to stick. As to motivations for this behavior, I can only guess. But Rebelyell has been irritated at me since I called him out on a comment he made about Rhodesia last week, I've taken Kyote to task for his monosyllable content-free posts in the past, and it's no secret that OFM (and his sock puppet account) and I don't get along.

-I suffer from chronic severe depression. I control it with daily medication and occasional therapy. That is a form of mental disorder. Given that fact, would I use the statement that something is a mental disorder/illness as a form of "attack". Would I regard it as a pejorative term? Even had I stated "you suffer from mental illness" (which I did not) would I regard that as being a form of aggressive rhetoric or shaming? Of course not. I feel no animosity toward LGBT (or whatever the approved term is today)folks. I certainly don't hate them. If I feel any specific emotion, it's pity and empathy.

- Armintrout, in the thread that Rebelyell posted the out of context quote from you stated "I have heard from a number of people who want to debate concerning transexuals. TMP is not the appropriate venue for that. Please adjourn to our sister side, The Blue Fez". This thread has devolved into exactly what you were trying to avoid: a political debate. It's past time to pull the plug on it.

Anyway, that's enough for now.

Martin

Q: Is the original post not quoted to you when someone hits the complaint button?
A: No

I would suggest that it should, otherwise any punishment is more associated with how long it is before you get around to looking and whether it was deleted in time, rather than the severity of the comment itself.

Or perhaps punishment should only be admissible where the comment has remained sufficiently long such that it can no longer be edited?

Or perhaps it will lead to any complainant immediately quoting it, thus preventing it from being amended/deleted.

I do think that TMP needs a 'lock thread' capability.

Murphy, that is irrelevant. The editors do not speak for all LGBT people on this website, nor do they speak for all LGBT people world-wide. If Bill really wants this website to be inclusive for all people, then he must stand up against bigoted speech. Otherwise he needs to change the FAQ to let people know bigotry is fine with him and allowed on this website.

Given that fact, would I use the statement that something is a mental disorder/illness as a form of "attack".

Yes, you would. Because being transgendered is not a mental illness, but you used rhetoric that anti-LGBT people use to denigrate transgender people.

I feel no animosity toward LGBT (or whatever the approved term is today)folks.

Then why did you state that you would not refer to them by their correct genders, but instead refer to them with incorrect gendered pronouns? How is that not an example of animosity?

Murphy, that is irrelevant.

So my opinion or point of view is irrelevant simply because it's one that you do not agree with?

Interesting…

The editors do not speak for all LGBT people on this website, nor do they speak for all LGBT people world-wide.

Um…no one here ever said that he (Bill), or they, (the editors) do speak for all LGBT people on this website OR for all LGBT people worldwide. IIRC, from this post, Don was talking about ONE person, (Editor Julia). And somehow or another it magically morphed into an "Everyone" post….

If Bill really wants this website to be inclusive for all people, then he must stand up against bigoted speech.

Okay…so if you want Bill to stand up against "Bigoted speech", then first we must all be in agreement as to what "is" considered "bigoted speech".

Secondly..ummm…well..you have heard of The 1st Amendment right???…..

Otherwise he needs to change the FAQ to let people know bigotry is fine with him and allowed on this website.

Or else you could find another miniatures related website that fits more within the scope of your perceptual-worldview of "how you think things should be as defined by your mandates"….

And this is one of the ways in "how" it starts….

Okay…so if you want Bill to stand up against "Bigoted speech", then first we must all be in agreement as to what "is" considered "bigoted speech".

Which of course would be difficult if people who use bigoted speech like TrenchRaider do not acknowledge that their speech is indeed bigoted. Perhaps Bill should just use common sense and a dictionary.

Secondly..ummm…well..you have heard of The 1st Amendment right???…..

That's what Bill said during the Holocaust Denialism fracas. And of course, the proper response is that (1) Bill already prohibits certain forms of speech, and (2) TMP is not a government agency so the First Amendment does not apply.

And this is one of the ways in "how" it starts….

Murphy, social conservatism is slowly dying in America. Would you prefer that TMP be a beacon of inclusion and acceptance for all people, or an under-siege apartheid state that clings to bigotry while websites like LAF and Frothers look over here and say "what a bunch of bigoted weirdos"?

>>>Yes, you would

Are you calling me a liar, sir? It's a simple question. Yes or no?

Martin

Are you calling me a liar, sir? It's a simple question. Yes or no?

You claim that I am harassing you. You claim a paragraph was taken out of context, but the entire post, when quoted, does not change any context. You claim being transgendered is a mental illness. "Lying" implies you are willingly saying something you know to be false. Perhaps you actually believe what you wrote, in which case, no you are not a liar.

That's not an answer. Try again.
Are you calling me a liar? How hard is that? Yes or no?

And yes, you are engaging in harassment. Making a thread in order to try to whip up a lynch mob mentality and trying to get a retroactive punishment for a week old minor supposed "offense" is certainly harassing behavior.

Martin

That's not an answer. Try again.

Perhaps you actually believe what you wrote, in which case, no you are not a liar.

Nice attempt at a back peddle there.

But it's pretty clear you are calling me a liar…albeit in a round about way. I would guess you just don't want to munch puppy chow in the DH for a direct personal attack.

I guess I'll just have to seek satisfaction for the slight by hitting the "report" button instead. ;-)

Martin

I merely quoted my first post, the post that you said didn't answer your question…

EDIT: Whatever. Not gonna bother.

, and it's no secret that OFM (and his sock puppet account) and I don't get along.

-I suffer from chronic severe depression. I control it with daily medication and occasional therapy. That is a form of mental disorder.

Considering the first assertion, you were generally under my radar. I honestly do not remember any past "issues" between us, but if you insist…
As Humphrey Bogart said to {Peter Lorre in Casablanca, "I would if I gave you any thought."

Point 2. What do you mean exactly?
"It takes one to know one?"
or
"This is why you shouid let me off the hook."
Sorry Bud. In many jurisdictions, that carries some, but not overwhelming weight in sentences for crime.

The only "judge" I have seen with more consistency than Dear Editor in Chief, or as you call him, Armintrout, is Roger Goodell.

I dearly hope that comparing Bill to Roger will not be construed as a "personal attack".

By the way, we voted on a 30 day grace period for being found out and sent to the DH a few years ago.
So you have 3 weeks to go before you are off the hook.
Although a Statute of Limitations does not expire strictly by calendar date. If the case is still being actively pursued, it may be extended.

I'm not a lawyer but I did watch Perry Mason back in the last century.

Murphy, social conservatism is slowly dying in America.

None of the polls I have seen say that. In fact, it's increasing.

I'm not a lawyer but I did watch Perry Mason back in the last century.

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I can conclude your interpretation of Statutes of Limitation is correct.

Ok so how do you know transgender people aren't mentally ill? We had a arrest a while ago maybe a year or more and it was a man dressed as woman thought he was a woman but still went to a male lock up, why because he is a guy. I don't know if these people are mentally ill or not but what I do know is if you are born a man your man, if you are born a woman you are a woman. You just can't beat DNA. And no I'm not for gay marriage either. Honest question and statement.

OFM:

>> I honestly do not remember any past "issues" between us

You've objected in the past when I've suggested alternate (read more effective) methods to help police the site and control trolling. In particular you got all irate about even a suggestion of a "troll flag button" such as sites using the Disqus software employ. Interestingly you took that really personal…
Does that jog your memory?

>>So you have 3 weeks to go before you are off the hook

I'm not too worried about it. You actually have to have done something wrong to get punished in most cases. I broke no rules.

>>What do you mean exactly?

Is it really that hard to understand? My point was that I would hardly use a condition that I also experience (in the general category, not specificly…before some clown makes the obvious low-brow joke) as a form of attack or insult as you and your friends would like to pretend.

>>None of the polls I have seen say that. In fact, it's (social conservatism) increasing.

Wow.
We actually agree on something. Insert cliché about broken clocks or blind squirrels… ;-)

>>or as you call him, Armintrout

That's the man's name. I know enough Bills that I tend to use his last name to make it clear. But it's come to my attention that some of the Frother kiddies call him that too. So I might have to stop lest I be associated with them.
Martin

Ok so how do you know transgender people aren't mentally ill?

You can start here.

I don't know if these people are mentally ill or not but what I do know is if you are born a man your man, if you are born a woman you are a woman.

And where do hermaphrodites, intersexed, etc., fit in this very simplified worldview?

TrenchRaider,

Why do you seem to be so obsessed with reporting people? You have done it in threads in which you were not even involved.

Well, this is going well isn't it.

"TMP is not a government agency so the First Amendment does not apply."

I don't think it applies to those of us who aren't US citizens either.

So basically if I believe I'm Superman then I'm Superman, even though I can't do anything Superman can right?

True, Martin Rapier, which was why the Holocaust denialism fracas was so embarrassing.

So basically if I believe I'm Superman then I'm Superman, even though I can't do anything Superman can right?

Kiteo, his eyes closed.

And, you know, hermaphrodites and intersexed people cannot do everything either, too? The human body is not as simple as you would like.

Oh noes!!!111!!
Irish Marine just committed a horrific hate crime!! Send him to the Dog House!!11!! /sarcasm off ;-)

Londongamer:
I'm hardly "obsessed" with it. That's hyperbole.
I do report offenses when I see them, as given the size of the site and amount of posts here on a daily basis that's really the only way that rules are going to be enforced and the trash (posts, not people…it has to be said) removed. It's what a good community conscious member of the site should do. Rules are rules. I have to follow them. You have to follow them. It's what keeps a place orderly and not degenerating into a free for all like Frothers or 4chan.

As to "not even involved", that is meaningless. If I read the thread, then I'm involved. I read far more threads than I feel the need to actually comment on. Do I have to actually have posted in a conversation to be eligible to report a violation? How does that work?

Martin

TrenchRaider,

I appreciate that you seem to see it as some form of civic duty. However, I am not sure that you understand how to moderate your own behaviour in this regard.

You remind me somewhat of a football (that is the version played across most of the world rather than the largely North American version) referee who blows the whistle every time there is a minor infraction rather than letting the game flow.

Londongamer:

That analogy would only be valid if I were a staffer with editorial/moderating powers. As it stands, I'm just a nobody. So I hardly "interrupt the flow of the game". Pushing the button on a troll or other miscreant harms no one but the guilty.

Martin

Sgt Slag
This is the Internet. We left kindergarten a long time ago.

I agree 100% … but many who can go on the net are still stuck in pre-school. Like we see here and as Winston points out.

Chuck Quartz 12 May 2015 4:44 a.m. PST

DELETED

Winston Smith 12 May 2015 4:52 a.m. PST
Lagartija Mike is back.
Phasers in Full Blast.

"Chuck" joined a couple days ago, and it appears he is a repeat offender. An adult would not waste his time playing such games as this "individual" and even "others" from another site, etc., who have the predilections to do. The "cloaking device" inherent to the net draws out these types. Because they are on the other end of the net or phone, etc. … completely anonymous … so they can talk trash, be mean spritied, devisive, etc. … And really add nothing to the conversation or banter. They get some weird pleasure from such actions as childish, immature, juvenile, puerile, etc., that they and these actions are …

TrenchRaider,

Ok, I give up on you. Carry on doing your civic duty; sadly, I suspect that you cannot see that there is at least one other person that it harms.

Ok, I'll bite, Londongamer.

Who am I harming in reporting rules violations…aside from the trolls that is?

Martin