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"New Medieval Swiss Infantry and Bear Handler! " Topic


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Tango0108 May 2015 12:08 p.m. PST

From Perry…
Nice!

picture

picture

Main page
perry-miniatures.com

Amicalement
Armand

Captain Cook08 May 2015 12:47 p.m. PST

Sweet.

GurKhan08 May 2015 1:43 p.m. PST

Obviously these are next –

picture

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP08 May 2015 1:58 p.m. PST

Nice. Ordered. If they ever do a plastic set for late 15th century Swiss infantry, I go broke :-)

The Gray Ghost08 May 2015 3:05 p.m. PST

I might have to order that for the bear

Griefbringer09 May 2015 5:02 a.m. PST

If they ever do a plastic set for late 15th century Swiss infantry, I go broke :-)

With Perry prices, maybe you would not. Not that I would expect seeing such a set anytime soon.

As for the bear handler, how would you treat that in a wargame?

jedburgh09 May 2015 7:23 a.m. PST

The Perry's already do a set of Swiss heads to fit their plastic mercenaries set.
link

Tango0109 May 2015 10:47 a.m. PST

Glad you like them boys!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP09 May 2015 2:36 p.m. PST

I know of (and own plenty of) the heads, but the bodies simply do not fit. The marching pike simply do not cut it for a full pikeblock, and the garb is not exactly swiss, too. I would like a set that I could use for the Swiss during the Burgundian wars through their employment by Maximilian in the eighties up to the Swabian wars.

As for "broke" – a good pikeblock for FOG/Impetus needs some 150 minis for me. I like it when the blocks look kind of real. At a rate of 1:20 these represent some 3000 men then, which works out fine for many historical battles. For larger, like Marignano, I can always deploy them side by side.

As for the bear – I do not see that mini in any actual battelfield use, except perhaps as a replacement for the banner. I doubt that any bear was used in a martial way. Perhaps I will just use it in a diorama as a dancing bear – the Pro Gloria bear is one of the very few minis I disliked from their series, as the shoulders look unnatural to me. The Bernese field camp would be a good place for a bear.

Pedrobear09 May 2015 9:47 p.m. PST

Made my own bear team using Perry miniatures and a D&D bear:

picture

link

Tango0109 May 2015 11:41 p.m. PST

Wow!
You really have skills my friend!

Congrats!

Amicalement
Armand

Griefbringer10 May 2015 12:06 a.m. PST

Painterman's work did also bear some fruit:

link

picture

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP10 May 2015 9:06 a.m. PST

Great work, both.

I would paint the Flag, pedroBear. This way the paper does not look so flat. Just inking it with light brown should help a lot.

Scharnachthal13 Feb 2016 1:12 p.m. PST

To this day, we can read on their website:

"EA34 Swiss horns and bear.

Includes Uri horn blower, two other horn blowers plus a bear and handler. There are contemporary accounts of bears acting almost as mascots in front of troops from Berne. Whether they actually were used in battle is open to debate, but there is one original manuscript showing this."


Obviously, this is not meant to be a joke…


I am really baffled by the comments accompanying this set and I am terribly sorry to say that by taking at face value an illustration and various references to "bears" in the sources and alleging that they were actually used by the Bernese as mascots during campaigns and possibly even participated in battles, the Perrys really drop the ball. As a matter of fact, these references are of a purely allegorical and emblematic nature. And there is absolutely no room for interpretation and, consequently, even less for speculation on this matter.

I assume the illustration they are referring to is the one in Diebold Schilling the Elder's Official Chronicle of Berne depicting the battle of Nancy where, in the foreground, some troops marked by the Lorrainese (not Swiss!) cross accompanied by a bear – unchained and in no way controlled by a handler – attack a Burgundian artillery position behind a barricade and ditch:

e-codices.unifr.ch/de/bbb/Mss-hh-I0003/846

Now, in view of the fact that the troops shown are marked by the Lorrainese cross, logically, the first thing one would think is that the troops fighting with a bear animal against the Burgundians should be identified as Lorrainese, rather than Swiss. But, of course, things are different. The troops (at least part of them) are Swiss but are marked by the Lorrainese cross because they fight as mercenaries in the service of the duke of Lorraine (more Swiss troops marked by the Lorrainese cross but fighting under their cantonal banners can be seen at the top of the picture). Equally, the bear is not meant to be a real animal but symbolically represents the Bernese contingent among the Swiss mercenaries.

It's a well known trait of Schilling's work that occasionally he represents the men under the banner of Berne, the warriors of Berne, as armed bears carrying the banner of Berne and some even are playing fifes and drums (see GurKhan's contribution above). The meaning of such illustrations is purely allegorical. It is no different with the bear shown in the Nancy picture. Schilling's texts never mention any bears used as mascots or even "war bears" and readers should never try to interpret single words (e.g. "bear") at will and out of the context set by the narrative. The same is true of the pictures.

Regarding the incident at the fortified Burgundian artillery position before Nancy, Schilling clearly states that it was "the Bernese and other Confederates" who had demanded and insisted on attacking the Burgundian position first. This they did under considerable losses. Not a word about a bear accompanying the troops. See here, p.112, lines 7-19:

biblio.unibe.ch/digibern/chronik_schilling_bd_02.pdf

So, actually, the bear in the illustration is standing in for the Bernese troops, to distinguish them from "the other Confederates" and to emphasize their heroism. In this specific case, his decision to portray them as a bear (and not as humans fighting under their banner) probably was inspired by an epic song on the battle of Nancy composed by the Bernese councilman Matthias Zollner in which the Bernese contingent storming the Burgundian artillery position is referred to as a bear, and their losses are described as the bear being wounded (this is why, in the illustration, the bear is bleeding). Actually, Schilling is quoting Zollner's complete lyrics in addition to his narration of the battle, p.119-123, Chapter 333. The stanza referring to the bear ["ber"] is on page 121, the first stanza. See again:

biblio.unibe.ch/digibern/chronik_schilling_bd_02.pdf

Another reason for representing the Bernese as a bear may have been that as the Swiss taking part in the Nancy campaign were mercenaries they did not carry their main banners – in the case of Berne showing a bear – with them. So, to represent the Bernese contingent as a bear instead would have been an adequate means to make instantly clear to everybody which troops were to be recognized.

Typically, in Diebold Schilling the Younger's Lucerne Chronicle, not only no bear accompanying the Berne contingent is mentioned but also he does not illustrate any such animal being present at battle. As he was the chronicler of Lucerne and not of Berne, Schilling the Younger (who was a participant in the Nancy campaign) probably felt not urged to specially highlight and praise the behaviour of the Bernese troops during the battle. Actually, he even sings a specific Lucerne citizen called Küri Köit's praise who according to his tale was the first to charge against the Burgundian fortifications. In his illustration, the Bernese troops at Nancy are simply marching alongside the other confederates under their own "Venli", a small, almost square banner used when campaigning as mercenaries abroad showing, in the case of Berne, a red upper half with a small white cross placed on it over a black lower half. No bear far and wide:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Deutsche_Geschichte5-290.jpg

If the Bernese, on this occasion or others, actually had been escorted by real bears -and had even used them in battle – , no chronicler – Schilling the Elder in the first place, of course, but the same is true of all the others as well – would have missed to mention such an extravagancy. That's for sure.

Regarding "contemporary accounts of bears acting almost as mascots in front", etc.: I really don't know of any. I'd like the Perrys to tell me which ones they have in mind. I'm quite convinced that any of those accounts would turn out to be of purely allegorical and emblematic nature. E.g., the Lucerne citizen Rudolf Montigel who was a participant in the battle of Grandson in an epic song about the battle is mentioning the "Bär" [bear] – meaning the banner and warriors of Berne whom he considered the most fearsome and courageous fighters of all and to whom his song was dedicated in the first instance – time and again. He also refers to the Uri contingent and their banner as the "Stier" [bull]. The lyrics of the song can be found here, for example (rewritten in a more modern 19th century version of German, with annotations), pp.146-157:

books.google.ch/books/about/Eidgen%C3%B6ssische_Lieder_Chronik.html?id=deU6AAAAcAAJ

Do I really have to go on? Do the Perrys really intend to present us bulls as mascots of Uri, shortly? I don't think so.

Again: "bear", "bull", etc. – these terms were mere allegories, not denoting real animals. Consider how we moderns use to call our hockey or football teams "eagles" or "bears", etc., and you get the full meaning of those references. No serious historian has ever claimed that the Bernese used real bears as mascots or "war bears". To be honest, I cannot remember to have seen such a claim ever. The Perrys' statement is the first of this kind and, with all due respect, I do not think that they are competent enough to put forward such a hypothesis.

Another point I'd like the Perrys to consider: Did it never cross their mind how uncontrollable and dangerous such a beast – even if tamed – would have been for everyone, including its masters, when actually unleashed in the heat of battle (as shown on the Schilling illustration)? Bears are no dogs. They won't be impressed by any "familiar" voice and even less by the cross painted on your coat or armour and they won't obey your orders. They will just be confused and angry and attack everyone.

Now, unfortunately, the models have been sculpted and are available for selling. What a waste of time and energy. I've always assumed that the Perrys were not interested in losing their credibility and would at least change their comments on the "EA34 Swiss horns and bear" set, letting people know that the bear was not actually used in the field, but that the whole thing rather was intended to be a treat for people who like allegories – or just a set for fun. It seems I was mistaken.

As far as the sculpting is concerned, I must say that I'm rather disappointed. The proportions look not convincing to me, especially the bear's anatomy (oversized, in my opinion) and head, and the men's faces are quite ugly. It is my impression that the figures were made in a hurry, just to present something to those who've had to wait too long for any new Burgundian War Swiss figures. Everything has turned out half-baked and not to my requirements. A real letdown. Sorry to say so.

Griefbringer14 Feb 2016 3:20 a.m. PST

It is worth keeping in mind that Perrys sculpt and release whatever they feel like sculpting at a particular time. Whether that is Napoleonic Norwegians, Carlist war mule train carrying mountain gun, British newspaper correspondents in Sudan, late medieval wine cart, 1860's Canadian militia, Luftwaffe air and ground crews, crusades era pilgrims, WWII British cavalry or Bernese bear handler.

I would think that the freedom to sculpt whatever they fancy at the time is what keeps them motivated and productive, instead of needing to follow production schedules set by somebody else. Keep in mind that they also spent decades as paid sculptors at GW (and a shorter period at Foundry), until going fully independent a while ago.

Malatesta150014 Feb 2016 4:45 a.m. PST

They also sculpted Richard III coming out of a carpark.

Scharnachthal14 Feb 2016 9:20 a.m. PST

The Perrys may sculpt whatever they want and whenever they want. I don't object to fancy or fun figures (if they are well done). Obviously, Richard III emerging from a car park was meant to be an allegory (as his remains were found under a car park) and they never tried to sell us the scene as a historical fact. So not an apposite comparison. But it's not their job to propagate nonsene in dead earnest – which they did in the case of EA34. They set up for historians but are not qualified. They should accept their limits.

I'd really appreciate if it were possible to prevent people prone to flights of fancy from developing even more crude ideas about what is historically acceptable (or interpretable). I apprehend that among war gamers there are quite a few such people and I am concerned about blunders of that sort as they are really suited to make a lasting impression on and convey a distorted view of things to unaware people.

Kleist1314 Feb 2016 10:29 p.m. PST

In my opinion, figure painting is quite a bit non-historical even if you are a button counter – for medieval soldiers, just think about the dyes that actually were available (as opposed to the colours shown in manuscripts) and how uniforms would have looked like after a few weeks in the field.
Regarding a bear as a mascot – for sure it is dangerous and unpractical, but on the other hand it is quite possible that somebody thought of it as a great idea and implemented it, at least for a while.(I'm not really well versed in that period, but I think that 'tame' bears ['dancing bears'] were quite common.)
At least one use of a bear as a mascot (although not on the front line, would have been reasonably stupid during WWI) for a military unit is quite well documented – just google 'Winnie-the-Pooh'.

Scharnachthal15 Feb 2016 12:14 a.m. PST

OMG, what has all this to do with button counting and dyes of uniforms? I'm not talking about "possibilities" here and there and then and now, I'm talking specifically about the historical facts concerning the alleged use of bears in the field as mascots or even war bears by late medieval Bernese troops. The historical facts are that such ideas are pure nonsense and I think I went to considerable length to explain this in depth. But of course, for some people it's just too hard to accept the sober facts. Please feel free to cook up more stories. As for me, I'm moving on…

Griefbringer15 Feb 2016 12:31 p.m. PST

As regards the mention on the Perry website, have you actually bothered to contact the good twins as regards the historical evidence? They have a contact form on their website and tend to be welcoming of constructive criticism:

link

Scharnachthal15 Jul 2016 9:09 a.m. PST

@ Griefbringer

Sorry, I've not checked this thread for ages…

Oh yes, I had bothered to contact the Perrys – not after they had produced this c r a p but, actually, already in 2012, i.e. a long time before. This is what I suggested (all suggestions were accompanied by contemporary illustrations):

"Dear Sirs,

As a great admirer of your figures, I would like to ask you whether you plan to broaden your "European Armies" range by including a few more sets dedicated to the Swiss of the Burgundian Wars. Personally, I'd very much appreciate if it were possible to make the following additional sets and/or figures and accessories:


- Swiss mounted command set (marching and/or standing)

including commander, his squire, mounted retinue (lancer, perhaps a mounted crossbowman as well) as can be seen e.g. in Diebold Schilling the Elder's chronicles. Below, Bernese commanders Niklaus von Scharnachthal (Schultheiss [Mayor] of Berne), Petermann von Wabern (another Schultheiss of Berne), Adrian von Bubenberg (garrison commander of Murten), with their squires and retinue. The squires are wearing their masters' helmets and carrying their shields (with family coat of arms) and lances:

Swiss mounted crossbowmen. Though dealing with an event in 1339 (the capture of Huttwil by the Schultheiss of Berne Johann von Bubenberg the Elder), the crossbowmen shown are equipped like crossbowmen of the 2nd half of the 15th century:

-Swiss military musicians set (marching and/or standing)

including the following musicians, all of which are shown in the chronicles of Tschachtlan and Diebold Schilling the Elder:

-fifer (holding his instrument either to the left or to the right),
-drummer. As you have already included a drummer whose instrument has a shallow shell in your EA mercenary infantry set, it would be nice if this one could be equipped with the drum variety with a deeper shell; apparently, this variety of drum was not only held by the hand, but also attached to either the arm or the belt (?),
-bagpiper (bagpipe with one drone),
-horn blower (no horned cap, just a feathered turban),
-trumpet player (dismounted),
-maybe a shawm player (rare but shown by Tschachtlan for Glaris troops next to two trumpeters):

- Swiss infantry, special poses

-kneeling soldier executing the typical Swiss gesture of praying with spread arms ("Beten mit zertanen Armen"),
-marching pikeman and handgunners carrying their weapons "at trail",
-marching and standing handgunners shouldering their weapon, holding it at the barrel, with rear-facing butts,
-maybe an extra standard bearer:

- a set of so-called "Swiss daggers" (longer and shorter varieties) as shown here:

- a set of handguns (as shown in the illustrations above), maybe also including a few crossbows.

Sources:
- Bendicht Tschachtlan, Berner Chronik
- Diebold Schilling (the Elder), Amtliche Berner Chronik; Private Berner Chronik (aka Spiezer Chronik); Chronik der
Burgunderkriege (aka Zürcher Schilling)

I would be pleased if my suggestions could provide an incentive to actually produce a few supplementary medieval Swiss sets."

So that's what I suggested them to do.

And here's the answer I got:

"Thanks very much for those, very well timed! I need to make some more Italian codes first but then I was going to turn my attention to the Swiss.
Thank you…"


I'am utterly disappointed!

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