"How do you beat the bloody English!!!?" Topic

I have asked this question before..but i still have not managed to do this..in my Hundred Years War battles i used to play only with the English..i found a good defensive position placed stakes..longbows in the flanks..and..i won..i decided this year enough was enough and i started fighting with the French…
unless my opponent had a few bad shooting rounds and i managed to get close to him fairly unharmed..i could win with my larger armies..but this is not a strategy..this is luck…i am breaking my head but i still can't think of a French strategy against the English..especially when their flanks are protected by some natural obstacle..

There were battles the French won in the HYW. Even before the reforms on the 1450. That said luck does determine victory to a big part, so no reason to feel bad.

Some solutions in my humble, not expert opinion.

Historical:

1) Dismount. It seems the French did better using infantry against the English rather than cavalry. If the game does not represent this, it needs to be adapted to do so.

2) Use gunpowder. Blast the English to smithereens. Obviously not available to early armies.

3) Include campaign rules. It seems to me French victories followed English failures on the campaign map. If you guys are not using campaign rules, or terrain rules that make it less likely to control the lay of the land then you are giving the English player a massive advantage. Furthermore they should not always be the defenders. Campaign rules can assure that you both have an even chance to force the other side to fight at your choosing.

Meta-historical

4) If they usually deploy in line, refuse your flank and send everything on just one side of the English line in massive column. The resultant reaction might ruin his or her plans.

5) Include rules for flanking outside of the board. French victories saw cavlary units outflank the English lines via circular approach I believe.

Anyway it seems you guys need to enrich your pre-game.

Thanks Costa

I think you are right i need to create a pre-game situation rule..etc.!!
actually a while ago we had a good pregame situation when the English did not have basically time to deploy in full and the French launched a fast cavalry attack..it was really interesting!

Dig in, place artillery and make them come to you.

The All Blacks have little trouble, the Aussie cricketers likewise and when did England get past the quarters at the football World Cup last?

I think you should rephrase the question…..

hahahahahahaha

For example here..i lost.

How do you beat the English?
With a club while they are sleeping!

Any time when they have stopped for tiffin……..

After 1730hrs……

On a Saturday or Sunday…….

Or a Bank Holiday………. So try tomorrow it's a BH here in Blighty!

Dig in, place artillery and make them come to you.

Battle of Castillon, 1453

You can't, we're great. And if you don't agree, I'll grab my long bow, put on my red coat, pick up my smallpox infected blankets and take over your country (again)😁

Nicholas I look at the picture and see some things that perplex me (yes this is partly sarcastic, I apologize)

1) Why is your cavalry leading the attack?

2) Why is your cavalry charging prepared positions?

3) Why is your cavalry lacking close support from your infantry?

4) Why are your four cavalry units going for different angles of attack?

Seeing this I would stick to the advice given above plus

a) never send your cavalry in by itself and piecemeal.Send the unit en masse on a specific point of the enemy line. Think of it as a battering ram rather than a moving wall. Those four units should hit the same area.

b) Send it in conjunction with an infantry attack on the other areas of the battle line. At least part of your infantry should be advancing in tandem with the cavalry and hitting the opposite area from the one the cavalry hits, or support the cavalry attack.

c) The English will always win if they face your weight piecemeal. You must en-devour to hit them at once. You must combine and coordinate. Otherwise your victories cannot be anything but luck (though quite historical maybe).

I think like me that you are a Knights guy. One who likes glorious charges. But frankly if you like that you are better off moving to Eastern Europe in the same period (Tanneberg-Grunwald). The HYW is not Knight friendly.

Yes in this pic you are very correct!
Actually it was a mistake i made..my Knights where waiting on the flanks..and where moving as a group…
Waiting for the rest of the army to advance.. just outside the the impetuous loose control distance that IMPETUS rules have.. but what happened ..the English advanced and as i said using IMPETUS rules in this game i lost control..i could not stop the due to bad dicing i must say..then the English took a couple of shoots and broke to cohesion of the group..and the rest..or better the Knights became History..
But again the advance of the French main army was too slow to avoid being damaged by the mass power of the bows..

Put your knights behind at least one line of infantry (whether it's Italian crossbowmen or men at arms). Let the English fire at the infantry while you line up your cavalry.

Play on a bigger table so that there's room to manoeuvre.

The picture shown gives the opposing force no alternative to going head first against the prepared lines.

Aha, the impeteous rule. Well you are playing the French. They make stupid charges. Keep your cavalry well to the back of your infantry line. You really need to make this a infantry melee. The English are allergic to those. Get stuck in and give them halberds and sowrds and bec a corbins etc!

You just wait. Eventually they retire from Empire, and all go on the dole.
-Kle.

Buy rules not written by Englishmen?

Flintlocks and tomahawks, but those are out of period.

Flintlocks and tomahawks, but those are out of period.

Um … I think you mean "Muskets and Tomahawks"?

Wait until the Wars of the Roses and let them do the job themselves. Send more support to the Scots and Welsh and keep them busy on the home front.

"How do you beat the bloody English!!!?"

Depends on the rules. Everyone has their own perception of reality, and each author will tend to simulate those aspects of warfare he finds important.

My perception of reality is real. So there.

Longbows en masse are unavoidable. On the march, not so much. Du Guesclin did that sort of thing successfully. So play smaller battles, or large skirmishes, where the French hit the English while moving, then quickly withdraw as soon as the longbow starts to form up in too great of numbers.

If you must try your hand at pitched battles, do what has already been suggested. Retain your cavalry in large numbers (don't run a portion of them out in front!), preferably on one flank, or in the center, like a big battering ram. But don't commit them until the infantry supports have fully engaged with the English line. Advance with pavise protection. This worked! It was other factors like mud and rain that messed the best laid plans up. Don't fight "Agincourt"! And don't fight Crecy, like "you" or the king have no choice, when the "impetuosity" rule kicks in for each group of chivalry that rides up and sees the enemy waiting.

Oppose as much of the longbow line as you can with pavised crossbowmen. Again, don't fight Crecy, as those stoopid Genoese left their pavises back with the baggage. Get them out. Line them up and advance into effective CROSSBOW range, then let the Anglos have it. The slow rate of shot shouldn't be a problem when you're hunched down behind pavises reloading, and each volley of quarrels will take out noticeable numbers of yeomen. The Anglos have morale problems too when they are being killed….

[Rules are written by an Italian.] If you put your knights on opportunity then I don't believe they are subject to impetuosity. Keep infantry in front, and do like the WOR, dismount the M-a-A. Double move if possible with B morale troops to close the gap, screen with good Breton skirmishers -Joan of Arc is helpful.

Extra Crispy…use rules that reflect the nature of war in later medieval northern Europe. All you have to do is find a set. Good luck with that.

Buy rules not written by Englishmen?

Did someone order a saucer of milk

To the OP.
Why are you assuming that the French have to attack the English?
If he sets up a perfect defense, there is no reason why you have to bang your head against it.
Do what he does with your archers and crossbow men. Set up out of his longbow range and tell him to attack YOU. Tell him you have all night.
That's how you deal with these Maginot line idiots.

The French should have limited control over their knights. This was historical. The French king was a lunatic who believed he was made of glass and the Dauphin was a fat teenage glutton who would have been happier if KFC had been invented a few centuries earlier, thus they had no overall command, unlike the English who had their king in the field. Agincourt had a good plan on ground of the French choosing, but the impetuosity of the knights stopped all this and resulted in disaster. They faced an invader who wore a Fleur de Lys on his crown, no way their honour could take this insult without attack. If your rules don't allow for this, then your rules are suspect.
To get more variety from the games, try scenario based encounters with differing victory conditions. Make the English army have to move, maybe a fighting retreat, or secure some supplies for their half starved army- which it usually was.

Excuse me good sir, but are you generalizing from the Battle of Agincourt to the whole Hundred Years War?Du Guscelin or the Joan D'Arc ring a bell? He is not just referring to Agincourt.

You just wait. Eventually they retire from Empire, and all go on the dole.

OMG, I almost choked on my beer reading that!!

Simple answer, you play to your strengths and not his (and as you've played the English side enough times, you should know them). As others have said, maneuver to a flank if possible,close with infantry, protect your crossbowmen and mass your cavalry striking force, but well back where they can't do anything silly. Taunt them mercilessly, and if they attempt to charge you: "fetchez la vache" ;)

think you are right i need to create a pre-game situation rule..etc.!!
actually a while ago we had a good pregame situation when the English did not have basically time to deploy in full and the French launched a fast cavalry attack..it was really interesting!

Patay?

Or Verneuil 1424….

Number 4 raises a good point. If you throw the old brown cow at them they will 'run away! run away!'