"Russian & Prussian skirmish troops" Topic

I know both Russain and Prussian armies had Jagers. Were these these the only troops trained to operate in open order during the 1804-1812 time period?

In the Russian armies, there were 1/2 companies of light infantry in the musketeer battalions, but I don't know if they actually got any training.

In the Prussian army, every line regiment of 3 battalions had a fusilier battalion, which was light infantry trained. Also, the third rank of the musketeer battalions were available as skirmishers. In fact, everyone could be thrown into the skirmish line if it was needed.

Sorry I can't be more definitive, but all my books are packed. The Prussian stuff is what I remember from Hofschroer's Osprey book on Prussian Light infantry, but I'll be hanged if I know where that is right now

I believe that generally wargamers underestimate the ability of the Prussians and Russians in particular to skirmish. The Prussians had scads of light troops and by the end of the Napoleonic wars even the militias, Russian Oppolochenie and Prussian Landwehr were expected to provide skirmishers… not to say they were much good at it

in 1806 they had the fusiliers, then light infantry, they had the Schützen in each company, they had the Jäger, pretty soon, already in 1807 if memory isn't failing me, the third rank was for skirmishing, later with the new organisation, the fuilier battalion of a line regiment was trained for light infantry, as well as the third rank of all others, including Landwehr, to add the Jäger and Schützen battalions and additional on top of that the volunteer Jäger attached to each regiment.

The Russians and the Prussians went through big changes in the period you are asking about. The Prussians throughout the 1804-1812 period employed Jaegers and Fusiliers as their light troops. Prior to 1810 the Russians had Jaeger regiments, and the infantry had skirmishers drawn from the sencond and third ranks. In 1810 the organization of the Russian infantry changed. The bn. structure changed from four infantry coys. to three infantry coys., and an elite coy. The elite coy had a platoon of Grenadiers and a platoon of Tirailleurs.

This is a complex question.

Prussia 1806-07
In late 1806-1807, the third rank was used to provide supports and skirmishers in addition to those equipped with Schutzen Rifles. This was indicated to be done in c1800 but does not seem to have been acted upon.

The Fusiliers operated in two ranks rather than three as it formed the third rank as reserve/skirmish order.

The Jager Corps was rifle armed and unlike their predecessors had sword bayonets so not as vulnerable to cavalry.

Prussia 1808-12
The new regiments have 2 musketeer and 1 fusilier Bns. The regulations published in 1812 re-inforced the use of the third rank. This is explained in my book on the Prussian Infantry which alas has been out of print for a number of years. I will next year bring out a new book on Prussian Infantry. The fusiliers would normally be deplored in open order with half in supports.

Prussian 1813-15
It should be noted that the Musketeers in 1813-15 would also be deployed in open order as were the Landwhehr. Reserve Infantry Regiments had the same organisation as the Line regiment with one battalion in effect in the role of the Fusilier Bn. This is underlined by the origin of this battalion (being normally the Fusilier Reserve Bn) and that when the Line Regiments were formed in MArch 1815 from them.

The lack of light infantry has often been overlooked by writers and especially wargamers. This is also the case for the Austrian and Bavarian Infantry. Simply because they did not have designated companies and it was pulled from the Musketeer/Fusilier Companies.

Stephen

It has always bothered me about 3rd rank skirmishers in the Prussian Army and how to do this on a game board. Since my figures are based on 1 company to a stand breaking this up the only thought I had was extra figures to send out. I do have a couple of Jagers I do this with.

I would just have a screen of half to a company. These are attached to the battalion and would not be separated.
Stephen

For Russians, see : TMP link

Fundamentally, the Russians expected the jäger to do the skirmishing.
Howevr, for skirmishing by non-jäger ….

1. The preference was to use a grenadier battalion (a battalion from a grenadier regiment, or the grenadier battalion of a musketeer regiment until the 1810 re-organization) as if it were a jäger battalion : the whole battalion was dedicated to skirmishing, although not all the battalion would be actually out in the skirmish chain(s) at the same time. Otherwise ….

2a. Early period : the third rank of battalions were used as a source of skirmishers – this coincided with a greater tendency to deploy formed infantry in line

2b. Late period : increasingly, the first (or first and second) files of each platoon (8 platoons for a typical battalion) were used as a source of skirmishers – this coincided with a greater tendency to ploy formed infantry in column

Side comment : the creation in the 1810 re-organization of "grenadier companies" composed of "grendier platoons" and "markemen platoons" did *not* create designated skirmishers in each battalion, although as the senior/elite platoons in a battalion, they were the most likely to sent to cover a retreat by the detached skirmishers of the battalion, if the battalion commander wanted to provide such cover.

- Sasha

As Glengarry5 intimated, not all skirmishers are equal. Trained light infantry would have a properly organised skirmish line, with the troops using aimed shots. I'm not convinced that troops from the 3rd line, or even some of the forces labelled as light/jager/fusilier did much more than form loose groups of men who would just blaze away until their ammo was gone. I suspect that a lot of sustained firefights during the period were nothing more than two such groups, ineffectively pot-shotting at each other, with neither willing or able to make any impression on the other.

In the face of regulations and manuals on the specific training of skirmishers, and contemporary evidence of their effective use in this manner, on what do you base this general assertion?

Sasha:

Zhmodikov, in his Tactics of the Russian Army in the Napoleonic Wars gives other methods in the late wars [1812 and after] including deploying the strelkovyi platoon or 12 picked men from each platoon.

Considering the varying instructions given Russian army and corps in 1812-13, I think it is safe to say that there wasn't just one method for deploying skirmishers. However, this is true throughout the wars for most all armies.

Considering how many times skirmish actions are mentioned in Bennigsen's report on Eylau in 1807, for instance, it is pretty clear that the Russians deployed a lot of them. As for training. The levels of expertise could vary a great deal, but what is clear is that most all infantry was used as skirmishers regardless. Large numbers of Russian Militia were used as skirmishers at Borodino.

"deploying the strelkovyi platoon" – I do not know of it as a typical method, except for the recovery of detached skirmishers (as noted above), but I am sure some battalion commanders might try it …. but it would really mess up the formations and evolutions of heavy infantry units to have a platoon "missing" …. in a jäger battalion, in open order, this would be the best platoon for real sharp-shooting, like the famous under-officer of 20th (or 21st) Jägers who was sniping very actively at Smolensk at very long range until finally silenced by an artillery company (his dead body was sketched by Faber du Four who witnessed the events).

"12 picked men from each platoon" -- yes these were the exterior 2 files of each platoon mentioned by me above, called "zastrelski", literally "men for shooting" …. actually there was a typo in my post : it should have read : "the first (or first and second) files on each flank of each platoon".

Also, in the early period, there were picked men in Jäger battalions armed with rifles : 6 jägers and 6 under-officers per platoon per establishment, more in some units. These were, apparently, largely retained in the units that were authorized them even after the nominal conversion of all jäger to muskets ordered in June 1808.

" Russians deployed a lot of them"
Yes, the jäger alone (whose main rôle was to skirmish in open order) accounted for 1/3 of a late-period Russian infantry division. Plus assignment of grenadier battalions to skirmish as a whole battalions. Plus the detachment of skirmishers from formed heavy infantry (the least used option, but still available). All this adds up to really rather many skirmishers. This led some senior commanders to assert the skirmishing was being over-done, especially in cases where a double chain of skirmishers were used.

As for militia units and skirmishing, I think I commented in some detail about this in a prior post, which I linked above.

- Sasha