"Salute! 2015 - review, photos and thoughts ont rends" Topic

I was fortunate enough to be offered a free entry to attend Salute! as "press" (erm, "bloke with a website"!) this year, so in return for Warlords generosity I've done a pretty lengthy photo review with comments, and then rounded off with some summary stuff about the show, how it might need to develop in future, and what the trends I saw represented there might be saying about the present and future direction of the "industry".

link

Feel free to browse and discuss….

(but not the spelling in the post title – which I apparently can't correct!)

Certainly earned your free ticket there

Good review. Really enjoyed it!

Nice review there. You're wondering if there's a game to go with that mad scientist lair? There is…7TV.

Great pics and info – many thanks for taking the trouble. I found your analysis v. interesting, since I wasn't there I can't vouch for whether you're right or wrong, but I think most people would agree that wargames companies are becoming more and more professional in the way they do business and package their goodies and in many instances this is clearly imitative of GW's methodology.

The retail scene of our hobby is definitely evolving, but I'm not sure that you can count out the little guys just yet – the big boys might do a roaring trade at shows like Salute but neither I nor any of my clubmates buy anything from them at all, the bloke-in-his-shed sellers get all our business.

I know you can't draw valid conclusions from such a limited sample of game-dom, but it'd be interesting to hear how more traditional figure retailers like Peter Pig, Essex, Lancashire and so on do at events like Salute – it might surprise.

Last year at Salute, I wanted to buy some Blue Moon miniatures from Old Glory UK. It was only around 11h30, but two of the code's were already sold out.
I think the traditional historical sellers still makes a profit at Salute. Anyway, I don't think they would attend if they lost money on it.

I don't think I'm suggesting that none of the "old school" metal guys don't make a profit at salute – but some of the smaller ones have been dropping out, and relative to the "branded" companies they are starting to look, well, "marginalised".

I think I'm saying that if the "branded" games get bigger, and especially if the show went to 2 days and stand prices had to raise to support it, then the traditional metal guys might conceivably get squeezed out. Pretty theoretical but…

Excellent AAR and pics.
Thanks so much for posting
Clif

Awesome, thank you…

As regards zoning, I would think the Warlords might be concerned that it would lead to a segregation effect, with most of the younger gamers congregating around the branded, pre-packaged SF/fantasy game stands and not being exposed to the historical and DIY side of the hobby.

Thanks for the blog. Great stuff! With regards to the bigger companies, the real worry is the likes of Wayland games. They were being fairly aggressive with their attempts to recruit more of the smaller manufacturers into their discounted fold. A lot of traders were approached by them on Saturday, not all of them have the margins to do discounted sales

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this – if a manufacturer chooses to sell only direct, thats their choice so I'm not sure I see how anyone could be "pressured" into accepting a retail partner who also wanted to offer an unrealistic margin?

Almost all of the UK's "metal/historical" companies only sell direct to the customer, and are represented at shows by their own staff (or, more often than not, the actual owner) so I'm not sure any efforts by a big company to co-opt them will actually happen, nor will it gain any traction. If anything, in historical/metal there seem to be a few aggregators (North Star?) who provide a platform for some 1-range manufacturers who may be too small to even operate their own web shops independently

For the small independent "game in a box" guys, or overseas manufacturers it makes perfect sense to have UK retailer like Wayland – but as/if/when Salute! gets bigger, I could actually see the publisher/manufacturer of (as an example) Infinity taking their own stand simply to push the brand, demo and promote the game – that would still be leaving the selling of the toys to a Wayland or others

Nice to get a detailed description instead of a mass of photo's. Thank you

A thoughtful review madaxeman, thank you.
Two day? Ask any trader and they will say No thanks.
Add extra van hire, overnight accommodation, meals ( drinks!!!!) and wages and the overheads have just been increased by 200%.
Come to think of it its London……increased by 400%. Then again no one will do anymore business so costs increase and sales remain the same.
As for the whole thing becoming dominated by the 'big boys' well thats just the way of things these days, a nice local cafe with great stuff or Starbucks……….we know the answer to that one.
And dont forget the 'big boys' have to have big turnover as their margin is very tight, all that 'professional look' ( by which is meant flash marketing usually) costs a lot of money.
And I'll just add that some of the historical figure manufacturers are not "lifestyle-business" but business that are run in order to pay the mortgage.
Oh if only I had a 45k job to fall back on lol (ed; In your dreams!)
L

Nice review mad axeman. A couple of points from the text:

will GW ever want to do Salute! "properly" question

A period from the early 2000's saw GW firmly back at Salute for a number of years and they made the transition over to Excel from Olympia but – in the end – the Warlords and GW couldn't agree with stand sizes with GW wanting to reduce the size of their stands more and more and simply replace stand frontage with 'free' demo games to show their product off (which is why Traders are now charged a fee for what are effectively 'advertising' games at Salute).

Also, Wayland kept bring more GW product and selling it better so GW pulled out, allowing Wayland a free run at it (as I recall)

perhaps the 2-day thing isn't really out of reach at all?

I would very much doubt it. I'd normally say 'not a chance' but I guess stranger things have happened. But it would largely be pointless.

One answer to all of the above might be more zoning of the exhibit area – maybe even with different pricing for the "historical" figure manufacturer zone to encourage more of them back in – if thats needed?

I remember having a phone conversation many years ago with Dave of QT Models who wanted a reduced fee for having his trade stand not in the main hall at Salute when we held it in Kensington Town hall "at every other show you lose money if you're not in the main hall"

Every other show is not Salute, I told him in 1986. And I was right.

There are no "cheaper zones" at Salute – especially when it's now in one big hanger! So I don't think the zoning idea would be to anyone's advantage. And how do you place a manufacturer that sells both historical and non-historical miniatures?…

Whether Salute is too big for a one day show is an interesting question, mind you. It's certainly almost impossible to see the whole thing in one day.

But consider these two points.

Firstly…

I love going to two day wargames shows but there isn't one of them that isn't dying – or even dead on it's feet – by Sunday lunch time. They are generally half the size or less compared to Salute and – if you've been there for two days – you've pretty much seen the lot. Twice.

In addition, two day shows in the UK only seem to exist for the tournament crowd. Every one else risks twiddling their thumbs. So the motivation for a two day show really isn't there for the Warlords, I would say.

But two day shows are very relaxing to attend, I find, and you get lots of time to mooch and see games – and maybe play some.

But…

Stingray – the only bit of the show I really saw in any detail – ran seven party games during the day and we could have run twice as many to please players if we'd had the time (and/or had cloned ourselves…). So – even at a huge show with seven or eight thousand people at it, people still want to sit down and play a game. Which is great.

Secondly…

When you go to a fun fair do you feel disappointed if you don't go on all the rides? And buy candy floss/hotdogs/burgers etc from every stand? And feel sad if you can't try and win a goldfish/teddy bear etc from every hoop tossing stall?

Ermm, no. One tends to skim the ones that look the most fun or go for the food you like or try for the cuddly toy your child/girlfriend/etc badgers you to get her/him.

I guess Salute is like that. As I said earlier Every other show is not Salute but the corollary is that Salute is not like every other Wargames show. I don't really know what it is any more but it's certainly different.

Just my two-pennorth.

John T

I am no longer doing Salute (or any shows at the moment) due to health reasons rather than anything else so I can't comment as someone who has decided to stop Salute for sales reasons.

I have been attending shows as a trader for over 10 years now and I have noticed that fairly consistently, my takings have stayed pretty static over that time.

The costs of attending shows (stands, diesel, van hire, etc) have all gone up as have my prices so the actual sales have dropped slowly.

I still make a healthy profit from a show like Salute (though if you factor in 2 weeks prep for casting, maybe not so much)…

This year I went along to help Ian at Fighting15s sell my paint and to have a wander around. it does seem to be more and more dominated by either larger discount traders such as Trolltrader, Wayland, Simple Miniatures, etc or the smaller boutique SF/Fantasy companies with very slick product at a high price.

As a small company that is run to make a living I can't afford a larger stand or staff to help so am limited to 6 foot with some display space which is fine as I am not running a business that is intended to do more than supply me with a (modest) wage and keep me off the streets…

I am not missing shows at the moment – takings are up 15% this year and I am extremely busy and behind on orders…

Personally, this was the first Salute I have attended at Excel as a (sort of) punter and had chance to look round.

Although there were a lot of games that looked good and you could clearly buy just about anything you wanted I was exhausted by 1pm and really just wanted to go home. I found the lighting in the hall, the hard floor and the noise tiring and I found myself hating being there.

I am not criticising the Warlords about that – Salute is what it is, but it isn't a show style that I like or am particularly interested in.

So, that was my first and last Excel Salute as a punter…

Mike

Whether Salute is too big for a one day show is an interesting question, mind you. It's certainly almost impossible to see the whole thing in one day.

Interesting observation JT and I'm inclined to agree.

Last year we attended as punters for the first time in years and were so knackered getting round it that we came back again as demo gamers this year and had a better time, even though we saw virtually nothing of the show!

Its a real dichotomy but shifting to a two day show wouldn't solve things for all the reasons mentioned above.

The Wayland Games stand this year was just stupid. Our table was immediately opposite and its the first time at wargames event, at ExCel or anywhere, that I've seen crowd control having to be applied inside a venue. The line trying to get to their stand extended way down the floor space for many yards, most of the day!

At one point I was thinking of joining it just to see what it was for!

One can't help feeling that they should have given the Warlords some kind of heads up on the likely hood of this happening. They knew that they would have a special deal running after all.

It was a real eye opener that they had at least two 7 tonne trucks taking their stand away at the end of the day!

I take the points about zoning and price but surely a layout that pens in the real big traders by location would help the little guys most of whom seem to get stranded round the edge of the hall or tacked on to the end of a run of stands somewhere to balance out the floor space.

First off, I had a great time and a big thank you to SLW for another successful show.
This year did feel different to recent years, nothing I could put my finger on, could be more people, could be more energy (= money being spent)could be more games than last year, not sure of the reason- anyway, to me, it felt different, and not in a bad way.
Back to one aspect of the idea of the potential of a 2 day event. If Salute went to 2 days, could we see a move towards a US convention?

Is there a desire for this among GB gamers?
GB demo games are all well and good (I've been involved in enough to know), but I'm sure there is room for high quality, per-booked, sign-up participation games which are not just a 1 hour, whacky bit of fun. Not suggesting they would replace traditional "look what we do" demos or current walk-up participation games, but could exist happily alongside them.
I guess this could still happen with a one day event, but would lend itself more to a 2 day event.
Have SLW ever done any research on this?
I'm curious.

As I write, a thought has occurred which is a major obstacle to Salute ever becoming a 2 day show. The wretched Marathon, which jacks up hotel prices and availability all over central and east London for this particular weekend

As a trader I'd have to agree with Leon and say that for us two days is a complete non-starter – I'd imagine that stand prices would have to double for a start.

But what about keeping the show open longer to allow more chance to see the games ? I wouldn't have a problem with it opening until 7-8 or even later.

Interesting thought Christot, I'm starting to wonder if there isn't space for that type of game as I get bored with my games ending up being the creche (last year adhd kid verses aspergers kid.
Not that all young gamers are bad a few years back when my boys were younger we did a game at a local convention that had some of the most innovative play I have seen in 40+ years by gamers under 14.
Tony a different thought with the later opening, we seem as a country to be obsessed with the 5:00/5:30 closure ?

'obsessed with the 5:00/5:30 closure ' really? Well maybe 20 years ago been I just been to Libaray which closed at 8 and then did a shop in the 24 hr supermarket lol
Closing time more to do with venue needing to be cleared I suspect.
' 7-8 or even late' last time I did the show took till about that time to get the van in to load up……….
L

I confess I was disappointed with Salute.

It feels like the show is drifting towards the 'Warhammer generation' and away from traditional gaming. Large parts of the hall felt like a Sci-F/Fantasy gaming event and a rough analysis confirms this
Fantasy/Sci-Fi/Steam Punk 41 games
20th century 24 games
Napoleonic 13 games
Medieval 8 games
Ancient 3 games
Naval 1 game
Everything else 15 games

Only 8 medieval games at an event with Agincourt as the theme ! ? ! ?

It feels like the show has reached a reached tipping point and has become a marketplace for traders where the games are largely irrelevant unless they are being used as marketing tools. In other words – the GW model.

I might feel differently in a couple of years time, but right now I do not feel it likely that I will go back to Salute in the foreseeable future.

Fantasy/Sci-Fi/Steam Punk 41 games
20th century 24 games
Napoleonic 13 games
Medieval 8 games
Ancient 3 games
Naval 1 game

So, Guthroth – by your calculations (and I haven't checked them but will take your word for them) 55% historical and 45% non-historical (plus 15 'other' games, whatever that means). Sounds like a 'win' for the historical gamer to me!

Joking aside, obviously I don't see the problem. Firstly, I'll take issue with the nomenclature: the subdividing of different historical periods is a false premise, in my opinion.

I go with Isaac Asimov's definition of fiction (and I'm paraphrasing somewhat so please bear with me, any Asimov fans): his contention was that there aren't westerns, murder mysteries, war stories and romance… and science fiction stories as separate entities. His argument was that there are only two categories: fiction (everything up to this morning) and science fiction (everything from this afternoon onwards). But within those two categories are the westerns, war stories, romances etc.

Wargaming reflects that, IMHO. I believe that there is only historical and non-historical gaming*. So the splitting of the historical games into period, as you have done, is as non-nonsensical (and I would argue deliberately designed to skew results) as saying the SF games should be split into, say, star ship deep-space combat games (ie navy in spaaaaace!) and blokes running around with tanks shooting lasers at each other (mostly modern combat in spaaaaace!) because they are different. Nope. All non-historical, by my books and – by your listing of historical categories – I take it you'd agree with me?

But this is just bandying semantics, after all. What – for me at least – is important – more than anything else – is the following question:

Does Salute reflect modern wargaming of the sort that takes place on a regular basis in clubs, church halls, people's spare rooms and even in the front of high street gaming shops in the UK?

And in my experience that's a dead easy question to answer. That answer is "yes".

Unequivocally.

Over the last few decades I've been a regular member of two wargames clubs (both based in the steaming metropolis, I grant you) and have visited half a dozen others around the country – not shows: clubs. In the last ten years especially, that mix of historical and non-historical gaming present at Salute is a spot on reflection of games being played on a regular basis.

Sure, some gamers – often older gamers (bear in mind I'm in my mid-fifties) play just historical games. Other gamers – often younger ones – play exclusively non-historical games. But there is a significant slice of gamers (of which I count myself as one) who play both.

For example, the Warlords themselves were due to play three games at Salute though – because of various pressures – cut that to two on the day. Let's use them as an example.

Starting with the one that didn't make it, a WW2 game played by long standing members who play lots of that period on a regular basis. Oh, and also Kings of War and various other non-historical games to boot.

The second one was Lake of Death – Bolivian fun put on by guys that have been die hard historical only gamers for all of their 40 plus years of club membership (in one of them's case, anyway). A historical game by older, historical gamers. No surprises so far, maybe.

And Stingray: very non-historical (unless you count it being based on a 50 year old TV show…) played by members who's gaming loves include everything from Ancients and Moderns, through Marlburian and 7YW to… well all over the place, with armies and gaming to boot. Who – over the recent years – have put on games like Jason and the Argonauts. Ah, but greek mythology is a non-historical game as well. Gosh, I was forgetting.

So, all this justification aside, the point I'm making can be summed up in one sentence:

I believe that Salute well reflects modern, broad church wargaming both in the games that are played (the vast majority of which are put on by regular gamers from regular clubs) and the traders that service them.

That – frankly – is a major chunk of why it is so phenomenally successful.

John "fairly biased, I accept" Treadaway

* sure the definitions are open to debate: the Nazi's winning WW2 is non-historical but that's not how WW2 gamers see it, I suspect. The Nazi's winning WW2 using zombies and power armour… easier to decide…

John, you might be right – hey, your opinion is yours and therefore unarguable – but so is mine.

I had fun on Saturday, and bought some stuff which meant I avoided paying postage, but the tone of the show – as it appears to me – means that saving postage is no longer enough to entice me to go again next year.

If, as you say, it's moving with the times, then I am happier to be left behind.

The only drawback that I can see with Salute is Forgeworld being almost smack bang in the middle of the hall, along with Wayland. Put them both in a corner with their respective queues tucked out of the way. The 2 biggest gripes about last Saturday dealt with in one fell swoop :)… Just make sure their pundits have to traverse all the other wonders on display on the way there :D

Guthroth

I think that there are a number of different elements here, though, not just opinions.

By my estimation, the general feel of Salute and the balance of non-historical to historical games hasn't changed much recently – certainly not since the turn of the millennia anyway. But, that's not really an opinion, per se: I could go back and dig out my old programmes to provide the evidence of this but that'll take a little time. But – assuming I'm broadly right – that's not an opinion so much as just plain maths: the balance has remained largely the same for the last 15 years, and I am pretty certain – without checking – that balance is within 5% either way of being a constant.

Where I would agree with you regarding change is that the flavour of the show is ‘drifting' (for want of a better term) and I think that is to do with the professionalism of both the games and the traders.

For the trade a combination of two things has encouraged all of them to up their 'game' in terms of how they promote themselves and their product.

I would argue that those two things are the venue's 'dynamic'- it's a big empty space and almost all traders now use a lot of graphics and banners to attract attention (all of which costs money and – ultimately – those costs are passed down the line). But it looks ‘slicker' and more professional, for want of better terms.

Secondly, every one else seems to be 'going large' and promoting themselves. We saw that two decades or more ago when a lot of the manufacturers started to switch to bubble packs. It makes the toys easier to handle (for the vendor), especially in a 'shop' environment (or a trade stand that looks and performs like a mini-shop at a wargames show). I expect it also puts costs up, but it adds a commercial 'feel' to the product. So again that encourages the traders to ‘up their game' which changes the tone of their displays and – therefore – the show itself.

Gosh: before you know it we'll have rule books in colour, figures with a change of pose… all sorts of modern shenanigans – but who regrets that? Not me, for one, because yes: I cut my teeth on 'Roneo Gestetner', one-colour rule books and Mini-figs ranges with only three poses. I don't really want to go back to that, ta muchly.

And of course, the games at Salute now reflect that level of professionalism too: they are very 'sucked and tucked' with terrific scenery, great figures and far less table litter on the tables. By and large, they are 'not your daddies' club night wargame anymore, that's for sure.

Why?

Because the world has moved on: what we have is now a much more demanding wargames audience who want – indeed expect – multiple figures in multiple poses in a vast array of periods and pretty rule books, preferably ones that all tie in together (big box of Bolt Action anyone?) and wargaming certainly isn't what it was when I started.

Salute has become a big, commercial show (still run by amateurs, of course) because wargaming is now a big commercial venture (three full colour gaming magazines for the english speaking world: I – for one – can remember as far back as 'Battle for Wargamers'…). Things have indeed moved on.

However, to return to my original point, none of that – along with the percentages I gave on game spread – is an opinion as such, more just a list of facts. Sure, you can argue that I put my slant on those facts but… We're approaching an election in a week's time so I guess we should all be used to that by now…

What constitutes an historical versus a non-historical wargame… sure, that's an opinion and not one we are likely to settle here.

Me? I'm just happy to see almost 8000* gamers served by all those traders having a fun time. I see – in another thread – you've asked about a UK convention? I'm up for that as well: we (as in the SL Warlords) did three years down in Margate in the early eighties with a short series of three-day conventions. Lots of accommodation (it being a sea-side town and out of season) and it was moderately successful but – you will notice – we haven't done one since.

I wish anyone well with that.

John T

* 8000: That's paid in advance, paid on the door plus freebies including free entry to members of clubs running the show, helping run the show or putting on games. It doesn't include traders

As a trader, I had a fantastic time and see the show as totally worth it (even the super stress of the build up and navigating that London!) but echo that 2 days wouldn't be great.

As for trends, I saw more women at the show than any show I've attended previously put together (including last year's Salute) I would love this to mean a slight shift to evening the numbers. Also lots more younger chaps than other shows I have been to. And seen as one of my missions is to sucker more "yoofs" and "wimminz" into the hobby, I thought this to be super excellent.

Cheers
Annie
thedicebaglady.com

Semantics and historical mathematics aside, I think its hard to argue that the "non-historical branded game" traders are getting more professional (or "slicker" to use JTs terminology) far more quickly than the "historical mini's metals caster" traders.

That will inevitably lead to ever more busy, shouty bits of the the showfloor… which the old gits who like chatting to the trader for 15 minutes whilst criticising the number of buttons on a 6mm miniature will feel uncomfortable being next to.

If Warlords created a "historical only" section of the hall (ideally in a low traffic area), and allowed those traders that wanted to to go into it to do so – not forcing anyone, just allowing them all the choice – I suspect that they would find that some historical traders might jump at the chance to have a pitch away from the space monsters and starships, and that they would do more business as well because the zone would prove to be a much better environment for "their" types of customers to hang around in and spend cash at their own natural pace…

John….I couldn't agree more with what you say….I to am from the same 'era' of wargaming as yourself….and…the hobby's move on…..thank God. I'm sure you know the folks running Salute work really,really hard this year to deliver a great day out for wargamers…sure there were 'hic cups' on the day…but not very many….and they will be fixed next year. The show is alway evolving, we always try to improve on the previous year….and, I think we do.
I for one, wearing my Warlords t-shirts, had so many people thanking the club and giving very positive comments on the show on the way out you just know the graft is worth it.

Lords there are times when I read these post Salute discussions and just want to scream. Do you guys realise how good you have it? The events here in Australia are only viable of they are running tournaments, meaning they're all tight for space. The UK scene is large enough to support a one day miniatures wargaming expo, and you are all the luckier for it no matter the composition.

Granted though, discussions about amenity and crowd control are valid.

From a traders point of view the rise of the mega discounter mega stand offering special deals on the day is causing us major problems and we just can't compete so we will have to consider our position carefully next year.

Now I've recovered I would also like to thank Warlords for a really good show & thanks for the freebies.
I was wondering if a Warlord member could help me?
My friends all received a dice with an arrow on it obviously for Agincourt – don't worry I'm not on the cadge – but in my bag I had a dice with a small flag and a large "E" on it where the "1" would be – Errr Why and what's it for?

No idea on that one m'Lord!

John T