"What's missing from scifi micro armour rules?" Topic

There's a fair few contenders out there at the moment.

I want to do something in this field in the future, and my gut feeling is to try and strike a bit closer to something like the old Space Marine, but with a more interesting command/control system, rather than the more gear-centric games like Strike Legion and Dirtside.

Anything that you, as a scifi gamer, would really like to see in a 6mm centric game? (adaptable to 3 and 10mm I imagine).

This is your chance to go nuts with the wishlist.

No promises.

This is also a good place to talk about what your top priorities are and what you look for, rules wise.

Oh it does. It does so well :)

Electronic warfare?

Mini-RPVs everywhere?

Adaptive camouflage (chameleon tanks)?

All munitions precision guided: shoot around corners at targets located by above mini-RPVs?

Most platforms autonomous robots, with a few manned units?

Minefields with IFF capability?

Cluster bomblet munitions with IFF and adaptive warheads: good vs infantry and armor, only hit the bad guys?

The OLD (original) FGU Space Marines? Or the 'later' Evil Empire stuff?

fun?

Yes, there are a lot of rules out there that cover almost everthing mentioned here. IMO, The Epic SM1/AT1, The Crucible, DRM's SEEDS OF WAR, Strike Legion, Future War Commander, DSII, off the top of my head. Seem to have some good stuff. So those might be some places to start your reseach. Now that being said, a good rule system Must include Unit Activation like E:A. We added Unit Activation back to SM1 in '90. The classic IGOUGO is just so old school, primative and IMO not a very good system that even comes close to being anywhere near "realistic". At the very least Unit Activation is more like "Chess Game" and closer to "reality". With move … counter move … etc. … I started playing wargames waaaay back in the '70s. I've seen/played a lot systems that just didn't really "work" on a tactical level, IMO …

My Take : Electronic warfare? = SM1/AT1, SM2 : Haywire missiles and some of the other missile rules. Plus OGRE has some nice ECM/ECCM rules, IIRC. Just be aware, ECM/ECCM die rolls before you can do anything, may become tiresome. So limit it. Plus as we know anything electronic can malfunction/fail on occasions. Hence die roll(s).

Mini-RPVs everywhere? = Drones need to be added to the mix. Which will very much influence LOS/Spotting … You must have commo, ECCM, etc., rolls. Otherwise it will be an Indirect Fire/CAS/Orbital Wpns, etc., slaughter-fest of everything on the board.

Adaptive camouflage (chameleon tanks)? = Codex Titanicus: Chameleoline camo for Titans, Can be modifed for AFVs, etc. … A modified die roll(s) could work. By adding or subtracting to the roll(s) to hit, etc. … Plus ECM/ECCM ?

All munitions precision guided: shoot around corners at targets located by above mini-RPVs? = A number of rules for the Tau in Epic and 40K have addressed this. But again be aware of the the same thing happening with the Drone paradigm. Everything dies … Plus ECM/ECCM ?

Most platforms autonomous robots, with a few manned units? = SM1/Codex Titanicus : Covered robotic rules. But again, do you add ECM/ECCM to this ?

Minefields with IFF capability? SM1/AT1/Cod-T/SM2 address minefields of various types. IFF would be an easy rule mod.

Cluster bomblet munitions with IFF and adaptive warheads: good vs infantry and armor, only hit the bad guys?
= SM1/AT1/Cod-T/SM2 handle this type of ordinance. Again IFF would be an easy mod … >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We worked on a number of rules systems melding/modifying, etc. in the past. We ran into the problem of having a great detailed set on rules … but took forever to play. So a good mix/balance of playability and complexity is important …

Striker.

Mainly for the command and control rules.

Plus the design rules are fairly simple.

Anyone remember "Hell on the Margin" ?

Okay, so all of this is saying:

High-tech (which might mean a smaller number of fast, very deadly units, rather than the standard battalions)

Based around active defences (counter measures, decoys) more than old fashioned armour.

More hard scifi

More "military" feel.

Do I have that about right?

My gut feeling is to lean towards faster/easier but I am confident a high-tech scifi game wouldn't have to be super complicated.

How about a set that takes infantry more seriously? Every set I've played treats them as almost an after thought. They are usually weak and rather ineffective.

Agree with TGunner.

Amazingly … the GW Epic rules series of rules actually do treat Infantry generally pretty well. That was one of the main things that attracted me to it way back in '90. The Crucible does a good job too.

Space Marine 1 was the best at that.

The problem is that a lot of games want to have "realistic" weapon ranges. Which is great except… it means the poor infantry gets to crawl across the table.

That's not just a scifi problem. I'm currently messing with the old WRG rules and any ground scale that actually allows tank ranges to be meaningful also reduces the grunts to a tiny crawl.

There's a few solutions to that:

They are all power armour troops that can jump around.

You seriously cut down ranges.

Go the Spearhead route and have the APC's built into the infantry stands.

The problem is that a lot of games want to have "realistic" weapon ranges. Which is great except… it means the poor infantry gets to crawl across the table.

"Realistic" weapon ranges are best described by Relic Knights and Force on Force/Tomorrow's War: "Can you draw line of sight?"

If you can draw line of sight, you can shoot at it. If you cannot draw LOS, no shot.

Of course, this then runs into issues with ballistic weapons and the wonderful concept of "Indirect Fire".

That's how I do skirmish gaming.

Maybe it's time for the micro armour games to get caught up? :)

Space Marine 1 was the best at that.

The problem is that a lot of games want to have "realistic" weapon ranges. Which is great except… it means the poor infantry gets to crawl across the table.

I agree SM1 did that best. As fas as Infantry crawling across the table. That is why Infantry has APCs/IFVs, use cover and conealment, smoke, etc. … And a number of rule systems have transport for Infantry in one form or another … And in RL transport of some sort is available to Infantrymen, generally. Either organic or attached.

If you can draw line of sight, you can shoot at it. If you cannot draw LOS, no shot.

Of course, this then runs into issues with ballistic weapons and the wonderful concept of "Indirect Fire".

Yep … LOS is critical. For a number of reasons … Also note my comments on Drones in my previous post.

Mini-RPVs everywhere? = Drones need to be added to the mix. Which will very much influence LOS/Spotting … You must have commo, ECCM, etc., die rolls, etc. … Otherwise it will be an Indirect Fire/CAS/Orbital Wpns, etc., slaughter-fest of everything on the board.

We have something in the works you boys are going to dig, I think. ;)

Shawn

That's how I do skirmish gaming.

Maybe it's time for the micro armour games to get caught up? :)

Given that literal "point-and-click" range for an assault rifle is 300m, 1/300 groundscale gives a small-arms range of 1m before you even need to consider adjusting aim-points for range. And 1980s tech level fire control computers have apparently made tank gun fire point and click out to probably 5km, so more advanced systems would make that even "worse" (I've read unclassified reports of advanced gun-launched ATGMs hitting targets at 8600m).

Though I suppose I would want some level of stealth or whatever on the targets. Thermal, radar, and optical stealth, at that.

And then you'd need to figure out how to add active defenses into the combat system without dragging things out too far. I really don't want to deal with anything more complex than "roll to-hit, roll active defenses save, roll armor save" and I'd really like to find a way to incorporate the active defenses save into the to-hit roll directly.

We have something in the works you boys are going to dig, I think. ;)

Looking forward to it!

I've tossed around ideas of an opposed roll system for a while, though it's harder to get it to run quickly with large numbers of troops, since you can't resolve fire in batches as easily.

Still not an insurmountable problem at all.

For anyone that wants to check out Strike Legion Tactical, the Rules Compendium is on sale until 8am tomorrow (PDT; GMT -8 IIRC) at the 'oops, I wasn't informed' rate of $7.47 USD (regularly $19.95 USD). Find it here: link

Well, Shawn, you've got my interest peaked :) I loved the concept of Ambush Alley/Tomorrow's War, but I felt the gameplay fell flat for my personal needs. That said, I loved the presentation, and will gladly check out more rulesets from you all!

Thanks, Kealios! Hopefully the next game you buy from us will be more up your alley!

;)

Shawn.