"How much did slopes effect the Battle of Quatre Bras?" Topic

Or to put it another way: is there any necessity to re-create the relief for a tabletop game or will it work just as well on a flat table? If you think there is an effect, which slopes caused it?

There really wasn't much of "hills" per say.
If you google and view the area today it will make sense.The terrain is rolling and thus visibility becomes limited.
I have:
1) placed the elevation changes per the maps (to make it interesting) under my mate.
2) and added small hill terrain pcs at the 4 high points that had max field of view so they become something the players see on the table top clearly as important terrain feature and thus will "contend over"(IE try to take it or hold it)- if you google the QB maps and research the troop placement at 2pm or earlier, you can get the idea of the highest points- which most were utilized early in the battle by the artillery of both sides!
3) Most importantly add the tall crops for visibility limitation locations. AS GM you get to enjoy how that plays out by the players!

MG

"La ferme d'en haut" in Ligny itself is indeed on higher ground and so dominates the surrounding area, a feature that should certainly be taken into account.

It's worth trying to recreate the series of ridges/valleys across the French line of advance, which have important effects on the French use of artillery. They were able to position guns south of the Gemioncourt stream (which was dominated by thick hedges) and shoot over the valley on the troops on the other side.

The terrain played a big part in the development of the battle – but it is often under-rated in wargames.

Unless we have proper rendering of terrain, our battles, whatever the rules will never be close enough to be as accurate as a board or computer game. That is why the initiatives of cigar box, if done right, should be a great thing for us.

@Jcfrog
Pls advise what you are meaning by " why the initiatives of cigar box, if done right, should be a great thing for us"
thanks

MG

The only significant slope was behind and to the east of Quatre Bras to the just north of the Namur roads. The ground sloped downward there. It's where Wellington hid Best's landwehr brigade. The ground, otherwise was rolling fields. It certainly did not affect the line of fire of the French artillery nor did it impede the several French cavalry charges.

The link below [which uses Fortescue's map, I believe], shows the contours at the battlefield of QB, and the initial DB deployments. The legend indicates that the contours represent 2m or 6'+ increments in height.

link

From the map it appears that Bijleveld's guns were deployed in swales, whilst Stevenart, perhaps more sensibly, deployed on crests.

marshalGreg, I think he means that the Cigar Box battle mats have potential.

marshalGreg

I meant: their affordable maps that can be spot on for the terrain to have it for historical battles ( and easy to convert).
The only one done I know quite well is Waterloo and to me is not so good.
Being curious, the Pike creek seemed spot on ( and anyway as soon as I can get back to my toys I will buy it) but I did not dwell into the research too deeply.
Short of doing your own tiles a la Bruce Weigle, this is the easy way to finally fight battles close to their entire historical conditions, if one wants.

Ah! that Cigar box!
Almost had them talked into Quatre Bras.
I think most are disappointed with their Waterloo per ther TMP comments.
I have used 3 different historical maps for my QB battle field.
MG

I will not use the Top Gear joke……look what happened to Clarkson.

Less then in Vietnam, perhaps?

Here is an aerial view of the field looking east. Quatre Bras is to the left. The house in the middle is La Bergie, held most of the day by the Highlanders.

From here. link

Jac Weller's book, bless him, got me started with my Waterloo obsession. Those Black and White photos are still unique.

and I still will not comment on whether there were any slopes at Quatre Bras in 1815………..all I can say is I went there once and saw no evidence of any. The ground was flat as well……….

Thanks very much for all of the comments thus far.

Many years ago, there was a computer game which had a slight elevation slope downwards towards the French positions approximately 300-400 yards away from where the Allies were. This game seemed well researched. The French could march formations up and not be hit by allied artillery until they had topped this small elevation. Can't remember the name of the game.

Supposedly not badly done are HPS computer games maps. Playing them finally taught me of the importance of accurate terrain.
Nothing in our usual tabletop games prepares you to the real empty battlefield for example.

Google Earth is all very well (and excellent for obtaining orientation and spotting landmarks), but nothing beats "walking the field" to obtain a genuine perspective of what the men who took part could – and couldn't – see, on the day.

Until I visited the battlefields around Waterloo, I had no real idea how easily troops – cavalry included – could simply "disappear" in even the smallest folds in the ground. Ideally, it helps if there are other people wandering about (or out riding on a horse) to reveal where these are and how they impact field of vision from various places.

From memory (which is partially borne out by the photo in the earlier post), there is a very slight upward slope to the crossroads from the N, S and E, with the road headed W being slightly more level for some distance.

There were high crops and gentle folds in the terrain, which go a long way towards explaining how tough the French cavalry were that day. Wellington's response was to order 4 deep lines used at Waterloo two days later.

I would not call it flat. Gently rolling perhaps, but not flat.

link

Unfortunately many of the most salient features of the field are not there any more, and help explain why even gentle slopes made a big difference.

The most important of these where the substantial hedges that ran the line between the étang Materne pool and Geminoncourt (more or less) following the line of the stream. These were quite an obstacle, able to block cavalry and artillery movement. Even infantry required pioneers at one point to get through it. If this hadn't been in a bit of a dip, then it would have been a much more serious obstacle to visibility. As it was, artillery fired over it quite happily.

Another important feature, though relief is not so much of an issue here, is that much of the east of the field was quite boggy – along the little streams towards the Delhutte wood. This blocked French cavalry from infiltrating round the to the right. It all looks nicely drained nowadays.