"South Africa continues to struggle with its history... " Topic

Can there be another country on earth who has such a cock-eyed view of their own history as today's South Africa:

link

After a week or two of protests about a statue of 'mass murderer' Cecil John Rhodes, the EFF have now turned their attentions to a war memorial, commemorating Imperial troops who died in the Boer War.

To make it even more complex, many whites – though they hate the EFF – will have no problem with these actions, as they have been fed their own line of propaganda for generations. Most aren't even aware that it was the Boers who attacked the British in 1899 (not the other way round).

There is also the on-going subject of 're-naming' towns to wipe out / re-write history… again, this gets many white South Africans very hot under the collar, though few seem aware (or to be interested) that the invading Boers also re-named British colonial towns in the early stages of the Boer War. Newcastle, for example, was re-named Viljoensdorp – a name it retained for many months until the invaders were finally driven back into the Transvaal.

Isn't this 'politics' rather than gaming-related? Interesting but inappropriate to this board methinks.

I must say, while I have no time for political correctness, I'm VERY much in favour of getting rid of the statues of Rhodes. If any one man is personally responsible for the mess my poor country is in, he's the candidate.
I always think of Mark Twain's very apposite comment on Rhodes at this point….

This seems like a "political" post.

I detest political correctness, I deal with re-writing history/changing names regularly at work, I really want TMP to be miniatures and/or history of war oriented and this post seems neither.

Complaint filed.

Ball in Bill's corner.

I am moving to another post now.

Sobieski

What makes you say that?

Mute Bystander

A story about a war memorial being attacked would strike me as being 'history of war orientated'.

Maybe some good can come out of this -Sobieski, are you still in South Africa? I'm a historical gamer in Durban always keen to find other South African gamers. Are you, perchance, anywhere near Durban??

Durban Gamer

I'm based just to the north of Johannesburg – how does a six hour drive for a game grab you?

There is a 10 year Statute of Limitations discussing politics. Cecil Rhodes floriat more than 10 years ago.
Reaction to his deeds by modern politicos is no more within the "no politics" rule than is reaction to statues of Lee and Forrest in the former CSA on college campuses.

So I would rule were I the head poobah of TMP. Which I am not.
So what did Mark Twain say about Rhodes?
And will all our pasty white liberals who attended Oxford on Rhodes scholarships have to give them back?

Chuckle! You lot are a riot! This is the Victorian Colonial Board Message Board, Not Modern media, and all the liberals left for Perth a lonnng time ago.
Cheers here's to all the statues going home to lands fair, let the stupid keep their ignorance in Africa instead.

Mark Twain's comments on Cecil Rhodes:
twainquotes.com/Rhodes.html

My favorite is: I admire him, I frankly confess it; and when his time comes I shall buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake.

Durban Gamer: I'm afraid I moved to Bangkok quite a while ago. Do you know Prof. Noel Zaal, formerly of UDW? If not, you might contact him; he was a keen gamer while I lived in Durban in the late 80s.
I take it I'm not addressing the man himself here?

Zargon: I'm sure having to study at Oxford is punishment enough!

If we could avoid these boards becoming the free-fire zone of quarrelsome finger-pointing that the Ultra-Modern board is, that'd be great. Really.

I'm not sure why people have a problem with this post? As long as the dialogue remains civil, can't any topic be discussed? Filing a complaint seems a bit much.

I thought it was an interesting link. Always fascinating to see how history gets interpreted and re-interpreted down the generations.

Green Leader

I sometimes visit family in Johannesburg. I also know some keen historical gamers in the area. Email me at fnzaal@gmail.com and we can plan a gaming get-together? Any other South African historical gamer reading this is welcome to contact me since we are thin on the ground here on the far frontier! I also sometimes travel to Cape Town.

Sobieski

-your memory is good; I am he, and still happily social gaming with some good friends after all these years! If I guess your id, you are a 1/300 Seven Years War man!

Alexander, no less. I hope the world is treating you well? Though I do plenty of other stuff than SYW; my wife and I played a 10mm Egyptians and Assyrians game this very afternoon, indeed.

Begging the indulgence of other members since I have no other channel to convey this. Alexander, greetings from across the globe after 3 decades. I still remember some great games with you.
Take care as the years spin by!

Can there be another country on earth who has such a cock-eyed view of their own history as today's South Africa:

You have obviously never been to the American South. I have university students storm out of class in a huff when I suggest that the American Civil War might, in any way whatsoever have anything whatsoever to do with slavery in a US History.

I'll agree with GreenLeader and Winston, and allow this topic to remain.

A lot of places can be 'peculiar' about their history. Many Japanese remain in active denial over their country's behaviour in Asia, and especially China, in the 1930s and 1940s, Ireland is finding interesting ways to observe the centenary of the Great War and the Easter Rising that don't conflict too violently, and it's worth noting that until fairly recently it was not acceptable in may quarters to talk about the c. 200,000 Irishmen who served in the British Army between 1914-1918. The list could be extended easily.

Thanks Bill – I imagined the new story / subject must be of interest to some and it is most certainly linked to Victorian era warfare, so really not sure what the complaints were based on.

I think what makes history in South Africa so interesting / bizarre is that – largely due to total ignorance of what actually happened – the various racial / political groupings have so many wildly differing points of view (rather than basically just two as in the case of the American South / Ireland – both of which places I have spent considerable time in), and 'the established view' has changed several times in the past century, and will continue to change.

Perhaps not unique, but certainly most interesting.

I think the world is touchy about SA because so many countries have a guilty conscience. That's why everyone wanted to believe in Mandela (google him a bit and get some unpleasant suprises), and pretends that there's no longer any racism there.

This has poisoned my favorite board and gave it a smack of ultramodern. I rue your lack of self-discipline gentlemen and your need to express your politics on this board. This has no place on these boards but I will submit to authority.

Good Day to you.

What IS it about this site?

Maybe the crown in UK will offer to accept the statues for safe keeping and rememberance? If a majority of SA would like to forget part of their past but have the opportunity not to destroy its symbols out of respect for history, an interested third party might solve the problem. Then, when there's some less emotional thought in the process they could be returned.

What IS it about this site?

I dunno, but there sure seems to be a really bad case of panties in a bunch going around right now.

Another day, another statue (this time, a memorial to the horses which died in the Boer War) vandalised:

link

when i was very young i perfectly remenber a so called "Colonial Museum" located inside the zoo in Rome..this splendid little museum was full of oil paintings depicting scenes from the Battles of Adwa, Dogali, Conquest of Lybia..plus man sized statues with original Askari uniforms, battle flags, captured native weapons among them piles of Dervish swords, shields, jezails from the Battelfield of Kassala…everything had been, from years, dismanted and stored in the cellars (a typical behaviour from Italian Museums)just for the sake of a vague "Politically Correct" attitude..or terror…so i can understand this kind of actions

Bill ruled.

I accept.

I still will let you discuss this without me.