"Would you attend a game auction at Historicon?" Topic

Jason exactly my point as a person like yourself with a lot to offer obviously needs to be involved. I know your a gamer and love this hobby as much as all of us. Feels good to be alive huh! I just see how much better it can be I'm no expert but sometimes it takes a little emotion and motivation for this to happen. As to $50,000 USD in the kitty for a non profit that's a nice chunk of change. Imagine if we had all the money that disappeared and spent on the Baltimore debacle. A side note my folks live in Gettysburg and I visited every summer in the late 70s and early 80s. You know what all the businesses never seemed to progress with the times and now there all gone. Yes the internet has killed the mom and pop hobby stores BUT if I can go three times a year do business buy what projects I intend to venture into and physically see the new products that's a big plus for me.

>I believe they lowered the price of the tables due to the amount of smaller and mid-size dealers that have already stopped attending Historicon due to cost.

Does that not mean they are addressing some of the concerns the dealers to try and make it more reasonable for them to attend given the changes in the market? That seems like they are trying to be responsive to their needs.

There's still more that needs to be done. Historicon is taking a large hit – especially by moving to VA. It sounds like the people aren't coming – especially in light of last years drop in attendance. Those that do come don't spend money in the dealer hall. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

King, not running for the board as I feel there are others who are more qualified. That being said I will be more active in the behind the scenes stuff. I feel I need to help out even my son can obtain volunteer hours for his school requirements. I am in the process of writing the Magna Carta and will post it as soon as I am done. NO disrespect to the present BOD but sometimes change is good and you need to put the round peg in the round hole sometimes simple as that. Take a survey of members expertise and ask them to contribute a little time. Keep it simple.

>There's still more that needs to be done.

I don't discount that fact. There are always things to be done to make it better for everyone. My point in starting this thread wasn't to talk about the dealer hall or the flea market. The point was a new idea, that idea being a short one evening long auction. That idea is dead at this point, but it WAS an idea. I'm trying to do things to help bring new ideas to table to bring more people to the show and to provide more outlets for events that people that attend conventions might be interested in taking part in.

>Historicon is taking a large hit – especially by moving to VA.

That is a debate I have no hand in. I used to drive 18 hours one way to attend these shows. I then moved closer and my drive is a lot more manageable now. Either way I go to a lot of effort to attend regardless of where they are held. I like the VA venue a lot but will attend it wherever it is held.

>It sounds like the people aren't coming – especially in light of last years drop in attendance.

I recall hearing that attendance didn't actually drop. I heard from at least some dealers that they did well at the show.

Dear King 30

Nope, not suggesting that at all.

However the complaints and dissatisfaction of the dealers have been vocal and ongoing for years now, and if they really feel that put upon then there are alternatives.

Dear Double G

As for the meeting held by the dealers years ago, it failed because you held a meeting. It would have been far better to organize slowly and silently in a patient manner rather than making a meeting where everyone can bloviate and gas out. Organize slowly and patiently.

Remember, it is a good and wonderful thing to honor the founders and all the work they did. However, as we have seen from a few days to a year or so ago back, the founders are now largely dead, and the people who have taken over are largely the people you are complaining about.

If you're not getting fair treatment by being nice, then you have to be nasty.

There is an HMGS yahoo group for members which contains files for financial statements and budgets. Any member can access the data. I would encourage members to take even a few minutes to review what is there. It is very enlightening.

I recall hearing that attendance didn't actually drop. I heard from at least some dealers that they did well at the show.

I'd eventually like to see the numbers. KJ was on the boards saying last years number did drop. It'd be interesting to see what actually happened.

Otto, being nasty? That's not the answer never is. The thought of having to be nasty in regards to a GAMING CON makes me sad. We all need to play in the sandbox together. We also don't have to take our ball and play elsewhere. The beauty to all of this is we have a choice who runs the show we all need to do is unite and vote the right people in.

Dear Millercop16

Well, what alternative do the dealers have? If they are being nice and not getting any consideration, then what? The HMGS Bod has been virulently nasty to the dealers many times, and I have been there and heard it myself from the mouths of the HMGS. I also KNOW who said those things like "they don't need the dealers" et all.

You're dealing with a group of people who are as self perpetuating as the table where the cool kids set in the cafeteria.

The dealers have been TRYING, fairly, nicely, reasonably for years to get decent treatment, and you see the result.

As for "voting the right people in" they've been trying to do this since 2000 or so. You'll never get it. You only get to get rid of them half a bod at a time, and new people voted on are simply ignored. As I understand it, all the decisions are NOT made at the meeting in public but backdoor on the net, and when you get to themeeting everything is always decided. So you have to go along to get along with the "Kool Kidz" and once you do that you're tarred and part of the problem." Doesn't work.

It's why the game I put on at Cold Wars this year was the first I had put on in 4 years.

"If the dealers are paying as a group $8,000 USD in table fees" !!!!!
WOW !!!! Now I am really upset -- this means OG alone pays more then half of all the total dealer fees just for Historican !!!

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Please read my question again. I asked how much the rental of the dealer hall is at Fall in and Cold Wars. You are speaking about Hcon which I didn't say anything about. I also gave hypothetical numbers as an example of what I wanted to compare. I don't have actual numbers at this time though I based them on looking at what HMGS charges for tables at those two conventions and the number of dealer tables in the hall.

You are getting upset about that?

Jason, the dealer tables for a show like Cold Wars probably raises around $12,000 USD+. I have not seen the numbers for a long time on revenue/expenses for these shows, but in the past the vendors paid for 50%+ of the cost of the shows.

Historicon vendor fees went up dramatically with the move to Valley Forge. Booth fees have dropped some this year, but have gone up and down the past several years. They are $260 USD each for vendors that attended last year (and a lot of us need a lot more than 1 booth), and $400 USD for first time vendors. Flea market tables are a steal at $25 USD/session (they would have to be at least $50 USD/session to be close for Historicon).

I assure you the vendors are still paying for a lot more of the show than the space we occupy and always have. Thus we underwrite a large chunk of the conventions that everyone enjoys.

LOL --- So you know --I am not upset about none of this. -- I guess Big grins are not seen over the computers? The shows for OG are somewhat nothing but advertising anyway -- OG has been around 26 years, is healthy, debt free,and strong -- with or without any shows. Your numbers were just so far just so far off it was funny !! (big grin) In the end OG will do, along with others, what we must do?
That was a quote from you and this is the kind of wrong information that often spreads and turns into fact/urban legend -- no where in that post do you suggest that either $$$ number is hypothetical -- and the dealer table fees you suggest are plain silly.

As I have said -- I have a strong sense of fair play and when someone says "we are going to do this or that" I think they should -- A rule is a rule and believe it or not -- most of my concern IS the smaller dealer who I would suppose are struggling??

I imagine there is not a lot of this we cannot fix the underlying problems -- times change and people change -- However, we do not have to do even more to harm the organisation only exacerbating the situation --maybe just to appease a small minority?
I believe that reason we see shows like AdeptiCon growing and thriving is the fact that they do not have to wind their way through democracy?
PS -- I do not know the total $$$ HMGS brings in from the dealer tables and do not care (which is why I do not know) -- although I have heard from a reliable source that dealer tables at Historicn generated $43,000 USD in 2013 -- thats better then a sharp stick in the eye!! --but based on my cost and estimating 4 or 5 other larger booths there must be $25,000 USD there ?????
I need to get back into the plant now and mkge sure the OG urchins are still slinging metal !!!!!
Regards
Russ Dunaway
Russ Dunaway

Thanks for the input. To be clear I'm not suggesting the dealers don't foot a huge amount for the shows. I don't think they pay most of the cost of the show relative to the space they occupy, but clearly they pay a SIGNIFICANT amount. My statement of $8,000 USD was not meant as fact, I said "if" meaning it was a hypothetical number. $12,000 USD is a starting point now, thanks for sharing that. And btw $8,000 USD is not far off $12,000. USD I also gave a hypothetical number of $4,000 USD to rent the space yet I don't know what it costs. Anyone know?

If a show has 1500 people attend and they pay $20 USD for the weekend that is $35,000 USD to HMGS right there. Take off the number of people getting in as GMs for free and you still must have something on the order of $20,000 USD-$25,000 from people just attending the show. The flea market tables provide up to another $7,500 USD to HMGS on top of that and the flea market is an area that is almost always double occupancy, meaning when it's not being used for the flea market it's being used for open gaming or tournaments. The dealer area is always for obvious reasons a one use area that is closed when the dealers aren't open.

Does someone around here work for the government?

Dealer tables are 95.00 a pop for Cold Wars and Fall In, that was revealed in the example Jason gave of the CD explaining the math on how it's more expensive to have a flea market table than a dealer hall table.

Anyway, what are there, 250-300 tables at each on of those conventions? Not sure, don't have a dealer hall map handy; lets say there are 250, that's 24 large in table fees.

I'd say it's more than that, but that gives you some idea of what we lay out as a group to attend those two shows.

I have no idea what they charge HMGS to rent that building for four days………………….

Jason, I think you will find that the numbers you are tossing around are well off. Unfortunately I do not have access to any numbers and I am sure I listed a number that was really low for vendor hall revenue. I forgot that almost 300 tables can be fit into the Tennis Barn. That means that revenue is at least in the $20,000 USD range or above. I do recall seeing old convention reports and know that vendor hall revenue did pay for at least 50% of the show expenses (well above the space leased for the vendors).

I think you may also be surprised at the number of paying attendees for a show as well. One must exclude most volunteers, vendors and their staff, children of attendees and badges provided to family members who are not gaming not to mention free admission for GMs.

Overall, I think you would be surprised with how much the vendors pay so everyone can come and enjoy these shows.

D

Once again -- this is 2013 Historicon.
Dealer hall tables = $43,000 USD
Flea market fee's = $5,500 USD

At the end of 2013 HMGS had a cash balance of $218,000. USD

No year end financials yet for 2014. I would postulate that since there is no more hemorrhaging that the numbers will only look better? $$$$$

Remember -- the real stars of the show are the attendees -- not the dealers or flea market !!!
Entrance into the dealer hall should have no fee for a beginning -- perhaps more?

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ, I agree with free dealer hall entry. I have been saying this for years.

I remember when someone asked me about not having a badge on in the evening when we were at Valley Forge. My reply was that badges only seemed to be required for the dealer hall, so why wear it?

I agree and have always agreed every show including all HMGS shows should have free entry for shopping in the dealer hall. I have never understood why a show would want to charge people if all they wanted was to shop. Adepticon does that now. They don't charge anything for shopping or for just walking around to look at stuff. If you want to play you pay.

The answer I have heard is that it might put the onus of policing who paid to attend versus who was there just to shop on the GMs and they didn't want to deal with that they just wanted to run games. But if a convention like Adepticon which is at least as big as Hcon or bigger can do it, why can't HMGS?

If someone wants to play a game or take part in the flea market they should have to pay to attend the show, but the dealer hall should essentially be open to the public to shop.

>That means that revenue is at least in the $20,000 USD USD range or above.

Does anyone know how much it costs to actually rent the barn at CW and FI?

Ok – so the million dollar question….

If HMGS raises the Historicon fee by 20.00 per person – shouldn't that be enough to bring the dealer tables back down to Cold Wars or Fall In prices??

"that means the revenues is in the $20,000 USDUS range or above"
WOW !!!!!!!! Read post above !!!!!
regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ you understand I was quoting another post, right? The one in which BTC said the dealers bring in around 20k in table fees for HMGS. The ">" in front of a sentence implies it's a quote from another post.

I'm asking the question, how much does it cost to rent the barn at CW/FI. I have not seen that answered anywhere. The nexus between the cost to rent the facility and how much HMGS makes off the dealers for using that space seems to me like a valid and important question. Also, I have no idea, is HMGS a non-profit?

My numbers are right from HMGS data that you can reference from their file if you are a member.

In BTC's post --when he mentions income -- he use's phrases like "at least" and "or above" so to me this is obviously a broad estimate.
Perhaps one more go at new leasdership would help ????
regards
Russ Dunaway

Let me get this straight; a booth at Historicon for someone who rented a booth last year will be $260 USD, but if you're new to the convention it will cost you $400 USD?

Boy, that will encourage a lot of new dealers to attend.

I do think HMGS are a not for profit for educational purposes--however I also know that "not for profit" does not really mean "not for profit" like many think?
look at Hospitals, insurance companies, churchs, Salvation army, etc. I really do not know how that really works?
regards
Russ Dunaway

Tumbleweed, I mistyped. It is less than that, actually $340. USD

Hey, I pay more the first time I see a doctor or chiropractor-- why should a new dealer be any different at an HMGS show?

But why the discrepancy? Why are new dealers paying more than returning dealers?

~iPaint

Nazrat:

Assuming you are serious, how would you know what a doctor will charge you? They don't publish their fees in advance.

Assuming you are serious, I will take the time to explain; you don't "grow the hobby" by whomping newcomers.

Any other questions?

It does seem at bit funny ??? What could the thinking be with a policy like that?
regards
Russ Dunaway

Oh, I'm serious. I would know because they TELL me they charge a "new patient fee". No big deal and I wouldn't avoid somebody that did it.

I don't see how an extra $80 USD would stop any hobby from growing. But explain away if it makes you feel better! 8)=

Not trying to speak for HMGS as to their reason for the fee difference, but IMO, maybe it's their way of rewarding/thanking those dealers who went along with the move from Valley Forge to Fredericksburg three years ago.

I appreciate the price break considering that I take two booths and four extra tables; Historicon is the second most expensive show I attend and I greatly appreciate any savings I can take advantage of……………….

Double G, I am with you. The lower price has me considering more space for the show…………..

More space means more product for you to have available for purchase, or said another way, that's more stuff I'll be happily buying from you…………..;).

In all seriousness, visiting your booth is one of the show highlights for me because I love your product offerings and from each show to the next, you always have something new and exciting to offer, which is why I keep coming back show after show………..

Double G another table for your train set up.

Thanks Double G.

Oh, I'm serious. I would know because they TELL me they charge a "new patient fee".

Not quite. As a health care professional, let me state that you are being charged a new patient examination fee. That's where we take down your personal details, do all the relevant medical questions, take any appropriate X-rays, and possibly conduct a full examination. This then becomes part of your ongoing file. On your subsequent visits this info is updated, but you don't need another new patient exam. Hence, no new patient exam fees. You are not just being extra billed because you simply show up at the office for the first time.

This really is not analogous to the fee schedule of vendors at a toy soldier convention.

Joel, I agree with the credit card issue. In defining the difference between selling hobby items and selling business items, I have no doubt that the IRS will consider taking credit cards as a possible move to being organized as a business rather than a sideline. I don't want credit cards in the flea market because it puts non credit card sellers at a disadvantage as well. I think the spirit of the flea market is selling your no longer wanted or needed hobby items, period. If you want to be a continual dealer at the flea market and bring new product each time, you are a dealer. I still see them, maybe a few less than before. What I am seeing now is lots of grey beards selling tons of painted figures at ridiculously low prices. I will soon be among them. Good luck with your sales, Joel. I know you work hard.

"What I am seeing now is lots of grey beards selling tons of painted figures at ridiculously low prices. I will soon be among them."

And that's a sad reality, which is really too bad. I'm seeing it the toy soldier hobby as well; more and more collections are hitting the market, most at rock bottom prices and the problem is there is virtually no one out there who wants it.

It is not a good trend for the future of either hobby…………

The trends that you are both seeing, and based on the statements by jpipes in terms of phones being used for paypal and credit card use, and the impact of the internet on all business, HMGS may have to begin to rethink how they put their shows together in terms of where the money will come from for affording a nice venue.

There is also one other problem that is facing HMGS shows, and it is a problem that is facing many organizations that rely on volunteers, the number of people willing to volunteer is declining. The people that started HMGS, who gave of their time and energy are now either too old to help out or are passing away.

It is no longer an issue of dealer and flea market for that show, but what it is going to take to keep the show moving forward into the future given the change in our society. Face it, if you go to downtown Fredricksburg, what are going to find? When we went to check out the venue prior to the first show there, downtown Fredricksburg was basically antique shops. With the disappearance of many of the old line UK miniature companies, like Redoubt, Foundry, Essex, Dixon, just to name a few, the secondary market at US shows maybe the growing trend, meaning they may not be the market for today's manufacturers, especially if the shows can not and do not work at bringing in new faces.

the number of people willing to volunteer is declining

I don't know if it's the amount of people willing to volunteer or if the people are being turned away. I was brushed aside a few times when I tried to volunteer at Fall In.

With the disappearance of many of the old line UK miniature companies, like Redoubt, Foundry, Essex, Dixon, just to name a few, the secondary market at US shows maybe the growing trend, meaning they may not be the market for today's manufacturers, especially if the shows can not and do not work at bringing in new faces.

This is a problem. I know when I go to the shows, I'm always looking for Foundry – both paints and miniatures. Nobody has handled them in years.

Dear Miniature ships

You say "There is also one other problem that is facing HMGS shows, and it is a problem that is facing many organizations that rely on volunteers, the number of people willing to volunteer is declining. The people that started HMGS, who gave of their time and energy are now either too old to help out or are passing away."

Do you realize what you are saying? You're saying that the people remaining are simply possessed of a sense of entertainment entitlement rather than love for the hobby.

So you're sort of agreeing with the taxonomy of "Vamps, Tramps, and Mules" which I posted on Wargames in General.

On the other hand "TheKing30"'s experience of being brushed aside when he asked to volunteer is not singular. I know of at least four people who have been so summarily turned away, two with rather snide comments.

Are volunteers "REALLY" drying up, or are the wrong people volunteering, that is "people we don't want to share the perks with?"

Dear Miniature ships.

Related topic. Please explain if the number of people who want to volunteer is shrinking. Where are all these other conventions coming from, NJCon, "The Weekend," Williamsburg Muster," several others. All of them are put together by people who are willing to put sweat, treasure, and time on the line, and who pretty much get NO perks or benefits as far as I know. Many of them once DID volunteer at HMGS cons.

Are the number of people willing to volunteer shrinking, or is it the number of people willing to volunteer for the HMGS cons shrinking?

OSchmidt;

Two things;
First, I the issue of volunteers is a problem for all organizations that rely on volunteers, especially if the organization has a history (meaning it has been around for awhile). Many of the shows that you mention are new cons, and some what local to the area, which makes available to them a pool of people that normally don't volunteer for the larger conventions.

Please note, that I never said that it is impossible to find volunteers, but people willing to volunteer time and effort is something that is a growing challenge for organizations.

Two, there is always the problem with people turning away those willing to volunteer, especially in organizations like HMGS. There are issues where people are hoping to include friends rather that someone they only rarely see; some times it is political (we are looking for people that like the way things are done); some times it is for selfish purposes or after some benefit that they are unwilling to share. Also, there are those that like to turn down others who volunteer so that they have more involvement to create there own importance.

Otto, I have been involved in Church work all my adult life, meaning I have been at both ends of the volunteer thing, trying to find volunteers as well as being turn aside when I wanted to volunteer to help. Nationally, the states with the highest volunteer rate usually only have about 35% to 40% of the people volunteer and of that about half of those are over 60.

And, in answer to last question, it is most likely both.

I try to avoid internet based discussions because they tend to hurt more than help but I feel that this long thread needs some facts to offset some of the myths. This is my personal opinion and not endorsed by HMGS or any other BoD member. I am an HMGS BoD member (ConOps) and also the Vendor Hall coordinator for Cold Wars and Fall-In. I have a very good relationship with most of the vendors and I try my best to represent their needs and I believe that Lon, Russ, George, Joel, and others have been pretty accurate in their contributions to this thread but I will try to provide some additional detail without getting myself and the organization in trouble (ie. I will not state specific costs here).
1. The Dealers do pay most of the costs for the rental of the convention spaces. For Cold Wars and Fall-in the Dealer tables are roughly the same costs and the Dealer Hall fees pay for most of the convention costs (as a note the Tennis Barn is a large cost element at the Host). 2 things to note here: Table Rentals have gone up substantially (>30%) in just the last 4 years and though the cost of Host is roughly the same, we have had other costs that have gone up and we have tried to keep the convention admission the same as well. Historicon has been a different issue. The Dealer Hall costs alone cannot pay for the facility (more than double the cost at the Host) and we have other elements that add to the overall Convention cost line and other ways to offset the costs that we do not have at the Host. I think Paul D. has done a pretty good job of balancing the increased costs of the venue with affordability but it is a real challenge.
2. Admission, T-shirt sales, raffles, Flea Market and other items end up being the profit centers for the Convention. It is interesting to note that with almost 40% of the actual badges as free (includes volunteer staff, pre-reg GMs, spouse/child, other) that has affected profit, but it is something the organization has accepted as part of the cost of running the convention. T-shirts and raffles are sporadic, but decreased attendance has really had a negative effect on the convention in every area.
3. Table to Table it is more cost effective to get a single Dealer Hall table than it is to get a Flea Market table due to the 2 badges mentioned above, not requiring membership, and being up the entire weekend, but this is where I want to defend the Dealers. Many of the Dealers are members, this is their organization as well as anyone's and they do take the hit on reduced number of badges after the first table when they purchase multiple tables. Many of the larger Dealers have accepted this as part of doing business and the Convention Directors know this and try to again balance that with managing the overall show – ie. managing Flea Market times such that the Dealers get timeframes before and after Flea Market hours.

Finally, the BoD is aware of this thread (I hope they continue following it) as it brings to light a number of issues that cannot remain unresolved for much longer. With that said, right now the idea of an auction is not an HMGS endorsed element for Historicon or any other HMGS convention. I (my own personal opinion here) am not saying no forever, but it needs to be weighed carefully against other issues to determine if it is worth it. Specifically, if we were to hold an auction what would be the cost vs profit and what would that do to offset potential losses in other areas (like more Dealers not coming – see note 1 above, and even reduced number of Flea Market tables). HMGS long ago established a formula that has worked well in bringing together gamers, GM's, and Dealers into one location to game, buy, sell mainly historical miniature products and related items. With the continued erosion of the attendee and Dealer base alternate methods need to be considered to continue providing this exceptional service. If we disenfranchise any one segment of this triad we have the potential of really hurting all elements and in my opinion that is unacceptable. This is not about money, this is about access to something you cannot get anywhere else at this scale and focus in the US. We need to keep that perspective, that other smaller conventions and Game Days are essential for the growth of the hobby (and frankly for the fun of it), but the HMGS conventions provide an opportunity that is unique for historical miniature gaming that is hard to find at that scale anywhere else. Thank you and please don't be offended if I don't respond to passionate requests or challenges, I am not comfortable having conversations on the web. If you are an HMGS member contact my link on the HMGS page and I will try to respond. Again this is my personal opinion, not that of the organization, but I did not want this thread to get out of hand.
Scott L.

I want to correct the issue of dealer table fees at Historicon. Yes, they were lowered for repeat dealers. But the fees are $260 USD as quoted above for a normal booth space (10 x 10 as opposed to tables) and $400 USD for a corner booth.

Long ago, Wally Simon negotiated a great deal for the conventions at the Host. I get the distinct feeling that terms are posed to us and we take them with little negotiation. This is my opinion based on what is apparent at the conventions.

I am not sure how much gathering of information from other convention organizers and how they run but some of the things they do are worth strong consideration. HMGS can draw thousands to a show. We need to use that leverage effectively for the organizations gain.

Example – if HMGS can continually drive thousands of consumers to the conventions, why can't the club share in the revenues generated from food and beverage sales? Even a 5% share would help defray costs for everyone.

I think trying a Free dealer hall pass or a lower overall entry fee ($10 Prereg?) would certainly increase attendance at the shows.