"Would you attend a game auction at Historicon?" Topic

One last time, when someone is buying and selling figures,games,books,etc for a profit, in pretty mass quantites, sends out pre convention notifications,etc --well then -- that person is running a business for profit and belongs in the dealer hall with his banner flying.
For that person operating in the flea market, an auction could possibly maximize profits.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ running your business must be hard when you are running so many other people's as well.

Aside from all your characterizations being wrong, let me just say that posting a reply in a "what are you bringing to sell at the flea market" thread on TMP does not constitute a "pre convention notification" as if it's a marketing campaign.

As I have already told you -- what you do is none of my business -- I have not accused you personally of anything and yet you say that my "characterization are wrong" -- how would you know when I have not singled anyone out? Taking it a little to personnal perhaps? That being said, I do have a vested interest in HMGS and this is what I am addressing -- What are the policies, what are the rules, what direction are we taking, goals etc?
The dealers pay a lot of money to sale their wares and support the shows, OG has given free specialty sculpted figures away on several occasion including one at Little wars in a few weeks just to support HMGS -- that is not cheap. As well as Table fees through the years upwards of 200 to 300 thousand dollars. I would think that would give me the privilege to at least voice what I feel about the shows, HMGS, and the descisions that are made -- not really all that unreasonable I would think ? I just do not like it when others (not saying you necessarily) do every thing they can do to circumvent the policies that everyone else abides by?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

When it comes to HMGS east and their conventions, they use to always ask the dealers what could be done to improve the show. It terms of the flea market, like Fredricksburg, we simply asked that the entrance and exit to the flea market be through the dealer area, which was the original plan and it was changed at the last minute. The con organizers all agreed that was a good idea. Next show, the flea market was exited and entered via the gaming room, as far from the dealer hall as they could get. Why?

At Valley Forge, having the flea market behind the dealer area resulted in better traffic through the vendor area, as well as seeing those "who make money in the flea market spending in the dealer area" actually being able to do that because they didn't have that far to go. The same was true at Gettysburg. The HOST and Fredicksburg, they put separation between the two, and a lot can happen to the potential sales from what was earned in one being spent in another area.

At Cold Wars this yearI was listing to gamers discuss the flea market, some discussed which flea market people took credit cards, others made sure that one in their group at least had a business cards from several of the flea market people. I have witness several times at the Host a group of guys that started in the dealer hall, move to the flea market, and then just took a side room where they now sell their items. I know game designers who sale both rule sets and box games at their gaming tables, and don't set up either the dealer hall or flea market. There was manufacturer that sold figures in the tournament room for a couple of years, and had signs all over the convention. I was standing with several other manufacturers and BOD member walked up and ask how things were going. The sign was pointed out, and his response was that doesn't prove nothing. The problem was the BOD member this pointed out to was a good customer of the guy in tournament room.

As a dealer I understand the dissatisfaction with flea markets and how they cut into our profits, when we ourselves support the show with table fees. As a gamer I understand that some of us are short of money and are looking for bargains. Having said that I offer two possible solutions, short of eliminating the flea market, a move that might cost attendance. One is to charge the same amount for flea market tables as dealer tables. This might convince dealers to buy dealer tables instead of the cheaper flea market tables. Two, have the flea market at the beginning of the convention, say Friday night. Many people wait until after the flea market closes to buy from dealers. The people will know how much money they have to spend, and what they need to buy. Also more people may come on the first day to sell/buy at the flea market.

As a teacher I have watched charter schools and virtual schools take money away from the public schools. Many schools are shadows of their former selves because of this and some are closing. Flea markets take money away from the dealers, and auctions take money away from the dealers. Dealers shell out alot of money to go to conventions between dealer fees, stock costs, and travel expenses. The more you take away from them, the fewer dealers will come. We have had dealers decline to come to cons because they can't make any money due to this competition. Nothing will be done until the dealers are gone, then the wailing and lamentation will begin.

This puts to rest any misinformation that people in the flea market pay less for a table than the dealers. Flea market sellers pay nearly double the cost of being in the dealer hall.

The information below is from the HMGS convention director which is wrote himself on this topic. The information speaks for itself. Actual data sure is a wonderful thing.

WB tables are more expensive. The issue is not cost of tables, but other overhead dealers incur… the bigger the dealer, the more their overhead. The cost of tables is definitely cheaper to be a dealer… within the strict requirements of a "one table" rule… dealers also get 2 free dealer badges and do not have to be HMGS members (a lot are members, that isn't the point I am making though) while foks in WB must be a member, must buy a badge and are limited to ONE table…

Overall… as a small dealer who only uses ONE table.. it is far cheaper to have a dealer table across the weekend.

Cost: $95 USD USD… I get one table for 18 hours, 2 badges and don't have to spend money on being a member or admission. One might argue that that is what the $95 USD USD fee is, but it is still cheaper in the long run to be in the dealer hall.

WB: $25 USD USD annual membership fee, show pre-reg cost $20 USD USD and $25 USD USD table x3 sessions not counting Sunday now…. that gives me 9 hours of guaranteed operation for a cost of: $120. USD USD Even if you throw in the 3 free hours for Sunday, you are still paying $120 USD USD for 12 operating hours on one table.

So to correct my earlier math:

Dealers pay $95 USD USD/18= $5.28 USD USD USD/hr and WB pay $120 USD USD/12= $10 USD USD USD. Again I say… that puts that myth to rest doesn't it…?

The dealers real cost comes in with multiple tables… that is where they are hit the hardest… BUT… believe me, if folks COULD buy multiple tables in WB…. They most certainly WOULD… and at WB costs.. they would stil wind up being $10 USD USD/hr of operation vs the dealer $5.28 USD USD/hr.

The real issues is the empty dealer hall as foks go to WB at the start of all sessions…. this gives the dealers the illusion that the dealers are losing money to WB… when, in fact…. these facts are solidly established:

1. most WB folks spending in the dealer area is intimately tied to them selling stuff in WB… they reinvest in new toys.

2. most folks who spend money in the dealer area come with very predetermined shopping lists.. only WB folks get giddy and compulsive on spending if they do well in WB… no one here will deny that.

3. it is very rare that folks will see something in the dealer hall that is new and shiney OUTSIDE their intended expenses and will buy it… unless they have the cash burning a hole in their pocket… ie.. see #2… WB folkgs get spend happy when they do well.. I knwo I do… I rush right over to the dealer hall and dump the cash into new toys, even stuff NOT on my budget list… better a dealer get it then my wife!!!!!!!

4. in WB folks sell and buy MOSTLY stuff that is not available at dealers any more…. out of print, etc…

5. the video killed the radio star…. err, I mean the internet, as much as a boon it is to stores, has greatly reduced what folks will spend on site as they can order from the stores anytime… and many folks here have admitted.. buying and paying for stuff upfront from dealers and then picking it up at the shows…

The one common thread here across all of this is the internet… it really is a catch 22 for dealers…. it reduces their overhead considerable if they don't go to shows and advertise on line, but also.. without being seen… folks will forget about them causing a drop in business so they must continue to go to shows to showcase new lines, games, tools, etc….

My heart goes out for the larger dealers.. it is a cost and I do hope they make their money back and then some… dealers must realize for every internet sale they get, they are probably losing one "on site"…. as much as the net has opened up your storefront to every corner of the world, it has and will also hinder your "live" sales as folks will inevitably buy online when needed and come ot the shows with specific lists and also hopes of finding a treasure in WB that no dealer sells…

Something the convention director didn't mention in his breakdown of information above? At some shows HMGS can make $7,500 USD selling flea market table space. That is a huge chunk of money going to support the show and everyone who attends. Take that away (not suggesting that is the goal of everyone posting here) and the dealer costs go up significantly.

At some shows HMGS can make $7,500 USD USD selling flea market table space. That is a huge chunk of money going to support the show and everyone who attends. Take that away (not suggesting that is the goal of everyone posting here) and the dealer costs go up significantly.

Please don't think me rude – but if we continue to lose more dealers HMGS is gonna lose a heck of allot more than 7500.00.

We need to come with with a solution that pleases both dealers and flea market people.

Personally, here is what I would put forth….

1) Open the dealer hall (for Cold Wars and Fall In) on Friday and Saturday at 9:00am. Keep it open until 6:00pm.

2) Open the Flea Market at Saturday at 7:30pm and Sunday at 9:00am.

This gives the dealers first crack at the customers and still allows for a Flea Market.

YMMV.

Uh oh. Here we go again!

@jpipes – if I can make a suggestion.

What you're proposing is upsetting at least three of the biggest and most loyal dealers HMGS has – Old Glory, Brigade Games and Double G.

Step back and take a large glass of water and a snack. Think about a way to create a win\win situation for all involved – dealers and flea market people.

Best wishes!!

Don't take this the wrong way but no we don't need to come up with a solution that pleases the dealers if that "solution" isn't something that actually addresses a real problem.

Loosing dealers if it really is occurring and from all accounts its not as bad as some suggest, has to do with a half dozen other critical factors well above the flea market. The CD outlined some of the biggest reasons and the internet is certainly one of the biggest.

The dealer area already is open early and open longer than the flea market. And I don't believe the dealers want to be open before noon on Fri at Fall In and CW because they have to set up! Either way I don't care if they open the dealer hall a month ahead of time, whatever the dealers want for their hours is up to them and I support that.

TheKing are you referring to the suggestion of hosting a short auction?

Are you ready?

If that is upsetting the "three biggest dealers" (I think some other dealers would take issue with that but I digress) I frankly don't care. I support the dealers with my money. I love them. I'm not beholden to their every wish. If there are ideas that could help make the shows fun and interesting I am all for exploring them.

That said this discussion has long since moved away from discussing the actual merits of an auction at Hcon. That is almost impossible to do when people have such immediate and knee jerk reactions to anything they perceive as a threat even though it more than likely would be a net gain for everyone.

That said?? No need to worry I have decided I have zero interest running an auction in conjunction with HMGS. The idea is shelved. Done. Over. The no's win. I can take a hint. No innovation needed. Not a problem.

As for the flea market? It's a wonderful thing and I look forward to it continuing to pump money into HMGS and the dealers.

Some of you are forgetting that this issue does not just affect HMGS East cons, but any con that has dealers and flea markets. It doesn't work the way its been portrayed here everywhere. King 30, the problem with your suggestion is that many people will hold on to their money until the flea market is over. Then many won't have the money to buy from dealers, and flea market sellers may not sell enough to buy from dealers. And many dealers, especially those that had bad weekends, are packing up and leaving on Sunday. By having the flea market at the beginning, Friday night, you

1. have people knowing what they still need and how much they can spend.

2. you may convince more people to come all three days instead of one

3. You may convince more dealers to stay open longer on Sunday for those people hoping to make deals on items that didn't sell.

A lot also has to do with what a dealer has to sell. If its new stuff that everyone wants, then it won't make a difference when you have the market, people will buy it because the chances are that you won't find it in the flea market, unless a dealer sets up there.

And Jpipes, I know very few dealers who only buy one table at the cons I go to. There aren't that many at Historicon, either, although I haven't been to one since it moved from Lancaster, so maybe that has changed. At our cons here a dealer table is $50 USD and a flea market table is either $20 USD or $25. USD In order to have sales and make money a dealer needs to bring a lot of different stock. This requires more than one table. Also you don't have to be a member to buy a flea market table. Just buy a badge. Dealers will also lay out money for stock that the convention marketer suggests will sell, and then it doesn't sell. I found that out. There is no perfect answer except to eliminate both dealers and flea markets and charge ComicCon or Megacon prices.

King 30, the problem with your suggestion is that many people will hold on to their money until the flea market is over. Then many won't have the money to buy from dealers, and flea market sellers may not sell enough to buy from dealers.

I didn't think about that. This was just an idea thrown out there as a starting point – something that could be built upon.

three biggest dealers" (I think some other dealers would take issue with that but I digress)

There are other dealers that are quite large as well, but they don't seem to be as vocal.

Either way – it was an idea thrown out to be taken as a starting point to build upon. No harm, no foul :)

Pipes if it's cheaper for you to be in the dealer hall then why aren't you there? Relax everyone change is coming I can't wait. It will all be positive for everyone. I love Double G.

Excellent! The same change someone claimed was "imminent" a year ago? Or the winds of change that were brewing the year before that? Or would it be the change the convention director himself said he would be making to expand the flea market to an evening session?

The question was if it is cheaper for you to be in the dealer hall why aren't you there? The changes will benefit us all. Like I said I attend to enjoy the hobby see the artwork spend time with the wonderful people I have met as a member of HMGS. No agenda here just want to make sure I can pass down the hobby like my father did for me. I am confident the future will be bright as a lot of eyes have been opened up.

I do go the dealer hall I'm usually one of the first in line when they open and I hit the dealer hall at least 3-4 more times before I go home. I am especially interested in buying old stuff and painted armies which are prevelant in the flea market and not in the dealer hall. I spend money at the dealer hall to augment my collections with rules, books, terrain, etc.

The question was if it is cheaper for you to be in the dealer hall why aren't you there?

NPASHA, this thread is not about the flea market. That subject has been totally beat to death recently and we don't need to segeway back into that area.
The question is whether an auction at an HMGS convention is a good idea.I don't feel the cons need a third avenue of sales. The auction area is easily covered by the flea market. The auction is just another venue to sell stuff that is already owned….If people want an auction…go to Ebay. Lots more opportunity there…

While eBay is always an option, an on site live auction is really an event which eBay is not. You don't have to wait for days to see if you have one your item and if some one snipes the bid before the sale is close at a live auction you have a opportunity to respond instantly and up your bid.

An event is really how it should be viewed. While it certainly revolves around the sale of used or "mint" games and minis as an event it does serve as an additional draw. Granted my evidence is somewhat anecdotal and specific to my auctions but almost 50% of my serious auction attendees come just for the auction. So there is potential for Historicon to actual expand its attendance (I have no idea by how much) which is likely to mean more people coming into the vendors' hall, especially if the auction is in the evening after the vendor hall has closed. That means these new people are actually hitting the vendor hall first before they go to the auction.

Heisler, is your company looking to run an auction at historicon?

Nope, I have no dog in this race.

Just curious do you run others, never been to one sounds like a fun day.

I run the auctions at GenghisCon, Tacticon and ReaperCon. The ReaperCon auction is unique in that is uses no money. Everything is payed for with ReaperBucks which you can earn during the show. Hence everything that I auction off is donated by Reaper, one of the vendors or even attendees. Genghis Con and Tacticon are more traditional auctions other than we make sure everyone gets paid either in cash or with a check before the weekend is over. No waiting for funds at my show. Those auctions are run on Friday night.

Thanks

Just as an FYI -

After the first table, there is one badge for dealer staff per TWO tables. So larger dealers get penalized.

The last half dozen years as my sons have aged out of the minor category I have had to buy additional dealer badges at the full con rate of $45 USD to accommodate my staff.

That is despite the fact that most if not all are already HMGS members. I get no discount on the additional badges.

I myself have been an HMGS member for 24 years. Why? Because supporting the club is the right thing to do to make sure it continues.

Same reason many dealers sponsor games with prizes or giveaways.

I sponsored the painting classes for years with thousands of dollars in unpainted figures for free.

Regarding the Flea Market / WB –

Let us not fool ourselves and each other in thinking there are not people in their selling off things that are not personal collections. That was what the FM/WB was intended to allow – a way for gamers to get some money by selling off old projects. Sure, I believe some still spend it in the dealer hall and fund their weekend. But there are others who are taking FM/WB tables that are doing this as a side business. Whether selling off extra stock, new items, shrinkwrapped items or painted figures and terrain just made for the show, that categorizes them as a dealer. They need to get dealer tables.

And I agree with Miniatureships. Having the FM flow into the DH is a good idea for Historicon.

I also am of the opinion that running the FM/WB at night on Friday would be a good idea. No dealer ever has the ability to go during the con hours unless you have extra staff to send over. And it would eliminate the giant sucking sound heard in the hall when the FM/WB doors open on Friday and Saturday.

A lot of dealers are a little on edge since we are seeing declining attendance and just got hacked with a snow storm for Cold Wars which hit sales, especially Friday. If the storm was Saturday we would all have been hit quite badly. Don't forget only 18 months ago Sandy hit the East Coast and caused a lot of people and dealers issues as well. Not many give a thought to the financial impact that weather has on the conventions and the dealers.

In no particular order:

The Society is called the HISTORICAL MINIATURES Gaming Society. As a historical miniatures manufacturer, when I walk into a dealer hall at an HMGS convention I want to see historical miniatures, not computer gaming dealers or (Horrors!) COSTCO. If you can't fill a hall, use a smaller hall.

I second the idea of charging the same amount per table whether dealer or flea marketeer, just like they do at the toy soldier shows. One table, one flat fee, one badge per table, the same hours for everyone, no one has to break down their table every 3 hours, no one has a competitive advantage with regard to what they pay per table. Russ, Double G and I can get as many tables as we want and the budding entrepreneur in the flea market can have his chance too.

Lose the booths, pipe & drape.

Auctioning off metal figures will prove much more difficult than board games. An auctioneer can wave an unpunched game around and everyone will be able to see it. But how do you show the bidders what the metal figures in a scuffed poly bag look like?

YA, What they said !!!!

While I can't speak to issues about the Flea Market or declining attendance numbers or other issues that aren't auction related I can speak to the poly bag issue.

My experience is that it doesn't matter. As long as you have given me a description of what is in the bag then I can (and have) sell it. I have sold scuffed poly bags of unpainted miniatures for far more than I would have thought possible with descriptions as vague as "50 25mm ACW miniatures mixed manufacturers". As long as the minimum bid is low enough to get peoples' attention. If you start it $5 USD I might get as much as $30 USD for it, if you start the minimum at $25 USD I might not sell it all. That's the risk the seller takes, he might sell it for less than he wants, it might go for more than he expects, or he might be walking home with it.

To the Dealers

If you are dissatisfied with the way HMGS treats you, and I agree it's pretty shabby, organize yourselves, and use the leverage of a boycott of HMGS and run your own convention, on the same day as Historicon or any other HMGS con-- run it across the road or down the street.

We tried to organize ourselves about ten years ago at Cold Wars; I went to the meeting and as I recall, there was a lot of hat, no cattle going on, too much arguing, not enough let's get organized.

It died on the vines from there; we had our chance, should have done it then, that horse has left the barn.

As far as boycotting any of the HMGS conventions or worse yet, running our own and essentially competing with HMGS, speaking only for myself, I would never sign up for that.

I leave it to others to run conventions that seem to compete with HMGS, not my style; if others want to do it and run quasi conventions as weekend events, have at it.

I think what you'll see is slowly over time, you'll continue to lose dealers as revenue's drop/expenses rise. You might see dealers skip conventions and run sales those weekends instead and do business via their websites.

How many dealers can you afford to lose before it becomes a non starter, then you'll essentially have gaming weekends, where the entire nut is funded by those who attend without the dealers table fees.

But you'll have your flea market table fees, so you'll have that going for you, which is nice……………..

One flat fee per table, buy as many tables as you need, one badge per table, the same hours for everyone, no one has to break down their table every 3 hours, no one has a competitive advantage with regard to what they pay per table.

Don't start up your own con and compete with the HMGS as Otto suggests.

Again I really have no experience with HMGS events but both Genghis Con and Tacticon have pretty extensive dealer rooms. But if the organization decided to they could do away with the dealers' room and still put on a gaming convention. Really the whole purpose and intent is to run a gaming convention. The dealers' benefit by having their audience right on site not the primary purpose behind the convention.

They could do away with the auctions as well at these shows and while they would certainly lose some people the gaming convention would still go on and they probably wouldn't mind having more gaming space on Friday night!

Oh my Otto – are we calling for a Historicon boycott?? This should get interesting.

I would attend an auction at Historicon but only if they do it at the Host.

"Start a dealer only show", I have been approached with this on numerous occasions in the past --- and this talk is being bantered around a lot at the moment -- and "yes" by larger dealers.
I have always rejected this because I truly appreciate all that HMGS has done for OG, the hobby, all the founding fathers were all friends of mine, and I have never had a desire to harm HMGS in anyway -- I have supported them through the years in everything they did -- I was even willing to go to Baltimore -- at least once anyway?
"no dealer hall" -- that's a laugh and I think a few peoples dream come true to their personal benifit -- I once had a bod member tell me to my face that "it would make no difference if there was no dealers here at all" -- a concept I totally disagree with --would have to make up a lot of cash as I would imagine the dealer pretty much pay the bills?
I won't say "never" as I will do what must be done if and when that moment comes so lets see what comes ???
regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ be patient a lot of eyes have been opened up and a core group of people who really care are going to try to positively change things. No knock towards the past regimes as I have always felt they have given their best efforts. But it's time for members who have the expertise in certain areas to step forward and lead us out of this rut. I love this hobby too much not to try to help it takes a lot of work and time to put on the three cons and I feel we all need to step up to the plate. Everyone needs to remember its about all of us. Just my two cents.

I once had a bod member tell me to my face that "it would make no difference if there was no dealers here at all" -- a concept I totally disagree with

I remember when the prevailing attitude was that unhappy dealers could easily be replaced with other dealers just begging to get in. Some things never change.

Russ be patient a lot of eyes have been opened up and a core group of people who really care are going to try to positively change things.

Millercop16, I'm not trying to be rude but what you're saying doesn't line up with the actions of the past. The BoD realizes one thing – the dealers don't have heart to organize and walk out. They'll keep jacking up the price of the tables, the dealers will complain and do absolutely nothing – except for hand them their credit card number.

Until the dealers collectively say NO and refuse to buy tables at Historicon, don't count on anything changing.

>They'll keep jacking up the price of the tables

I believe they have reduced the prices for the tables at the next show. so that statement is incorrect.

As for "change is coming" the current HMGS Convention Director has emphatically stated (like most of us here) that he supports the dealers 100% but will not be dramatically altering the flea market or doing away with it. The talk recently was of adding an evening slot to address concerns that dealers couldn't attend. They tried that at Hcon last year and there were no dealers that stopped by.

I'm curious, does anyone know how much extra it costs the convention to rent the tennis court building for Fall In and Cold Wars?

I believe they have reduced the prices for the tables at the next show. so that statement is incorrect

Mea Culpa

Just curious, how much lower are the tables? Are they as low as Cold Wars or Fall In?

I believe they lowered the price of the tables due to the amount of smaller and mid-size dealers that have already stopped attending Historicon due to cost.

All you need to do is look at the amount of empty tables at both Cold Wars (a show that never had empty tables) and Fall In, which you could now almost push every one down and have the whole back open. Historicon has dealers sharing a booth to save on cost, and that results in seeing less and less the highlighting of dealers.

I believe Millercop16 was referring to the upcoming election for 4 seats on the HMGS Board. There are many members who are aware of these important issues and feel there is opportunity here for constructive, positive change. Ballots are expected to be mailed very soon.

>I believe they lowered the price of the tables due to the amount of smaller and mid-size dealers that have already stopped attending Historicon due to cost.

Does that not mean they are addressing some of the concerns the dealers to try and make it more reasonable for them to attend given the changes in the market? That seems like they are trying to be responsive to their needs.

A number of dealers missed Cold Wars this year because of the freak winter storm that hit the day before.

Some of the holes in the dealer hall are due to large dealers that have stopped attending shows entirely like The Last Square. They not only stopped attending shows they closed their epic destination shop in Madison Wisconsin. They stopped attending shows and closed down because of what the internet did to their business. The internet is and remains the largest single factor in costs and running a successful business in this hobby for 98% of the people attempting to do so.

Pipes with that statement I will now call you out. "How much extra does it cost to rent the tennis court building for Fall In and Cold Wars". Sounds like to me a simple minded fellow that you would like nothing more than to get rid of the businesses and only have a flea market and auction. It doesn't take a genius to figure out you do have an agenda and have sent out many probes and threads to stir the pot. You make a lot of money at the cons which I have no problem with this is America. I've purchased from you and that is why I'm a little disappointed you seem like a great guy. Our dealers who take the time and expense to be at the cons and have been for years deserve better I don't care all of this is getting out of control. I even asked you the simple question, if it's cheaper for you to be in the dealer hall as YOU stated why aren't you there. Maybe I'm wrong Jason but everyone needs to be on the same page. You know as well as I do some tweaking needs to be done to keep everyone happy. If your in business that's fine don't hide it embrace it. Like I said a lot of us are in our 40+ and me personally will not allow this organization to go away. We need to find a better facility, which is out there make the dealers a priority who pay for our square footage and then some and go forward introducing new products and games even embrace the fantasy world and sci fi. It's all about having fun and escaping the reality of life for a weekend at a time. It doesn't matter what past BOD members have stated. I know you don't reside in the northeast so it would be difficult to be a part of the change it seems like you have a lot to offer in regards to retail sales and auctions as I know you attend all the large shows across the US. Contact me if you want and I would be happy to pass along any of your ideas to the right folks. POSITIVE change is all we need we need to put our heads together utilize any specialties from our professional lives and move forward.

My question was a legitimate question Millercop16. My question has nothing to do with wanting to get rid of the dealers, that is utterly baseless. My question is in wanting to know how much HMGS is charging the dealers versus how much they are paying for the space. The reason that's becomes important is because it's my understanding HMGS has something like $50,000 USD banked right now. I'm trying to get my head around just exactly what the nature of the issue is facing the dealers. If the dealers are paying as group $8,000 USD to attend the show through table fees etc and it's costing HMGS $4,000 USD to rent that space for the weekend, isn't that an important question and something we might want to know in the context of this discussion?

Contrary to what you might think I don't have an agenda. This is my hobby, and everyone benefits when things are going well for all parties. I don't desire a show where there are no dealers. Some of the dealers are good friends of mine and I spend a large amount of money with them at each show. The shows would be worse off without them.

King 30, your not being rude but the dealers shouldn't have to unite and revolt. They should only have to plan.

King 30, your not being rude

Thank you

but the dealers shouldn't have to unite and revolt. They should only have to plan

I agree 100%. I'd love nothing more than to see the dealers work together to get tables at a reasonable price and everyone walk away happy. Even if that means jacking up the price of the convention, then so be it. However, looking at the past actions of the BoD, I highly doubt that will happen. Maybe I'll be proved wrong?? I sure hope so.

I believe Millercop16 was referring to the upcoming election for 4 seats on the HMGS Board

Now this DOES sound promising. Millercop16, if you're thinking of running for the board, PLEASE put your agenda out there. I'd love to see it. I'm not being sarcastic, I really do think we need a shakeup in the BoD.