"Would you attend a game auction at Historicon?" Topic

I agree that a silent auction isn't ideal in this venue. It works great for the charity stuff held occasionally at HMGS events, but not for a gamer oriented auction. The idea was to hold it in a side room at Hcon which is a big facility and not infringe on people running games or any of the other spaces. Make it a few hours or however long it takes to finish up, item comes up, bidders bid, winner pays and takes the item, next item up, rinse lather repeat.

Appreciate your comments Walt and I didn't take your comments as being overly negative. I appreciate them. I have experienced that miniatures gamers do tend to be on the whole less receptive to auctions and auction formats. Haven't figured out why entirely, but I have noticed that. Less so than, say, board wargamers. I'm guessing it's because to most people it's a difficult format to buy and sell painted figured in. Or at least that's the perception. Much easier to sell a board game that's like every other copy of that title published. Condition, title, genre, next item. Keep in mind the auction idea was to sell anything board wargame or miniatures related, so it was going to have a range of stuff for sale. There are a ton of gamers who attend HMGS events that are not strictly miniatures gamers or looking solely for miniatures.

I wouldn't say the overwhelming feedback has been negative. The overwhelming feedback here has been yes, but I have a dozen replies via PM and email that have indicated support and interest. If an event draws 1000 people and 85 are interested that's close to 10% interest and in my book a success. We don't have enough feedback to really gauge if this would be a success at Hcon or not. What we do have is some excellent feedback and some good discussion though which I appreciate and encourage.

Thanks for the comments so far!

jpipes, No, OG's sales are just fine. As to your venture I do not have any problem (per se) with what you want to do, in fact, as I stated, for the most part it is none of my business. I think some of the negative response you are getting from the dealers is based on some things that have gone on in the past and the appearance that some observe?
I know that is why I weighed in on it and it really has nothing to do with you specifically.

I do disagree with some of your thoughts on how people spend their money, especially that which is disposable income and also how an actual organiztion should be run --this is why most small towns have " town planners" and they allow a certain number of any type business's in the town -- "two ice cream stores is good, six ice cream stores and you may end up with none"? Also, I have never been to a garage sale/yard sale where they take credit cards?
Either way, good luck in whatever you decide.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Are all the sales at this proposed auction going to be paying sales tax?

This means everyone selling (or at least the auctioneer if they are collecting and then distributing the proceeds) is required to register for a sales tax ID that is required by law.

As far as Historicon and sales. Declining attendance numbers pretty much guarantee declining or at least stagnant sales numbers.

The issue I am many dealers have is siphoning off a portion of disposable income from gamers who come to Historicon to spend. Most of us make an investment in time and money before and during to attend in hopes of earning some return on our investment.

If this is such a good idea then the auction should be able to be run on any weekend and attract gamers to attend and supply the auction.

As I gather it would be piggybacked on top of the gamers coming to Historicon. Let us not be naive and think it isn't capitalizing on the work of HMGS and the attending dealers.

Also, by Virginia law, flea market vendors are supposed to register for a sales tax license (even for a one time thing)……..

jpipes, I do agree that with paypal and such there are more options by which to pay. Thus, I also believe that the flea market, as describe and run in the past by HMGS is also out dated and should be moved into the dealer hall, where you buy a table for the day, and can operate in the same manner and hours as a dealer table. This then helps to level the playing field between the flea market and the dealer hall.

By combining the whole thing and labeling everyone a dealer, there are no question about who is a dealer and who isn't, flea marketers spend what they earn in the dealer hall or they don't. Everyone is operating on the same level. Yes, it may hurt the few guys left selling off their collections, but hey how many people in the flea market now when question about the high price of used items, go that is what they are getting for it on Ebay!

If people are willing to pay ebay and paypal fees to sell stuff, and ebay is on per item basis, then there should be no problem with paying the dealer hall table fees. Let them have the table the whole weekend, and not have to tear down.

This method, to me, would also allow for your auction, because you would be paying for the space and right to sell, and that method of selling is via an auction.

Yet another four star thread; thanks Jason.

I have to give it to you; your views on the flea market vs the dealer hall are if nothing else entertaining. Zero basis realitywise, but entertaining.

In the meantime, the dealer hall keeps bleeding dealers; did you notice that large empty space in the back of the hall at Cold Wars that is usually there at Fall In? It was never there for Cold Wars.

And this year for Historicon, HMGS has reduced the booth fees; why? Again, because they are bleeding dealers. When a major dealer like Lon says this may be his last Historicon, it's time to pay attention.

And yet, you want to add another drain on the dealer hall.

You really need to stop with the "The dealers need to bring better product" argument as it's got nothing to do with that and everything to do with attendees for the most part have a budget, stick to it and if the majority of their funds get sucked up in the flea market, that leaves less money to buy shiny new toys in the dealer hall. It's simple economics.

Can't tell you how many people tell me they blew their bankroll in the flea market, they'll either contact me to do mail order or see me at the next show; I had the newest, latest, greatest items, yet it still didn't matter because Joe Wargamer is out of cash.

And you need to check your calculator; you said the voting was 50/50? By my count, it was 3 for, 36 against and 4 maybes, explain to me how that works out to 50/50?

I hope the calculator you used to come up with 50/50 isn't the one you use to total up those sales of yours in the flea market.

Keep the threads coming Jason, you really are entertaining.

>In the meantime, the dealer hall keeps bleeding dealers; did you notice that large empty space in the back of the hall at Cold Wars that is usually there at Fall In? It was never there for Cold Wars.

Did you notice the huge snow storm that prevented people from attending the convention?

>I have to give it to you; your views on the flea market vs the dealer hall are if nothing else entertaining. Zero basis realitywise, but entertaining.

And there is your problem. I never once said I have a problem with the vendors or the dealer hall. NEVER ONCE. I don't see anything as an "us vs them" issue. Please don't put words in my mouth. What I did say was that I support the dealers, love what they provide for the hobby, and that I spend a lot of money money with them when I can. Those dealers who don't solely deal in 54mm plastic men laid plainly on a table have a lot to offer and I try when I can to support many of them. In fact I consider a number of the dealers to be my friends. I hit certain ones up every single time I attend, religiously. So please don't change the tone of this discussion and make it into one about the flea market versus the dealers. I see no problem with the dealer hall or the dealers. I do have a problem with people mischaracterizing what goes on in the flea market or how it operates though and I have attempted to correct some of those statements here.

>Can't tell you how many people tell me they blew their bankroll in the flea market, they'll either contact me to do mail order or see me at the next show;

And seeing you at the next show is part of the problem regardless if there is a flea market or not. Some dealers are at every show with the same product and the same layout selling the same stuff at the same prices. You don't think for a second that people might begin to think "gee, I can wait to get XYZ item because I know for sure it will be here next time"?? I'm not saying that is a productive way of thinking for gamers, but it's what happens. I personally don't view it that way, I treat it the same way I treat small used book stores. I go out of my way to buy something when and where I can to help support something I love. End of story. But if someone sees the same thing at every show nothing to prevent them from putting off some purchases until next time. That again has nothing to do with the flea market and everything to do with human nature.

>I had the newest, latest, greatest items, yet it still didn't matter because Joe Wargamer is out of cash.

Not offense but I believe you sell pretty much only 54mm plastic soldiers and the like. Not a lot of variety on your table when I see it. Strikes me as something one buys occasionally, it's not like 54mm is the bread and butter of the hobby. The stuff you sell is essentially the window dressing for gamers. Maybe that cuts to the heart of the issue for you. Other dealers who sell a range of product far more in tune with the heart of gaming at these conventions seem to do alright. The ones selling terrain and 15/28mm figures and rules and dice and the like. I have heard many times that dealers at game conventions who sell a limited range of items to a limited market tend to have make or break shows. Some are really good, others are really bad. From comments you've made in the past that sounds like your situation.

>And you need to check your calculator; you said the voting was 50/50? By my count, it was 3 for, 36 against and 4 maybes, explain to me how that works out to 50/50?

And you need to learn how to read. I said the total votes I have received here and via PM and email originally was around 50/50, then I followed up saying the same email, PM and here was now leaning to the no's. Did you miss the part in the sentence where I clearly stated here, PM and email? Apparently you did.

Sales tax issue is tricky. So first I am not a lawyer or a representative of state or local government, and my comments are my opinions or based on information I have read.

Most states have an "occasional sale" exemption. That is why you can have say an annual garage sale and not have to pay taxes on the tangible items being sold. If you ran a garage sale every weekend then the municipality could decide that you are running a business and make you collect sales tax (please check your local regulations don't take my word for it). In the case of an auction the owner and seller of an auction lot may not be liable for any taxes on the sale of his lot or lots based on the occasional sale exemption (if it does indeed exist in your area or state again check the regulations). If the auctioneer and his crew take a cut of the sales or there is a flat fee then that is not taxable as a sales tax but it is income and would then be subject to income tax. Tax rules and regulations should be checked.

My own auctions are an integral part of the Denver conventions. as they are with most game conventions. They are not an add on event and in fact serve as an additional attendance draw for the convention organizers. So certainly they draw upon the work of the convention organizers but I don't see how they draw upon the efforts of attending dealers. In my experience there are four types of people attending auctions;
1) Resellers – these guys are here to buy stuff cheap and resell it later, they usually have a store that sells used games or they have a big eBay presence. There are typically 2-3 of these guys in my auctions all the time. Its very likely that these guys aren't there for the convention anyway. But they just pumped money in to the auction and the convention.
2) The Buyer – these are your typical attendee of an auction. He is looking for used copies of games, minis or whatever. He's not likely to stay for the whole event but he makes up the bulk of those present and is apt to wander in an out, perfect target for a pay as you go. This is the guy that would also be spending some money in the flea market and the dealer room.
3) The Collector – auctioneers love these guys. This is the person that comes in and checks out the lots as they are brought in to be registered. If he sees stuff he wants he will stay for the entire auction. His bids will push prices higher and if sometimes if its the piece that he needs for an army or a collection and its OOP he will not be beat by anyone. He is pumping money into the convention and is unlikely to be spending money in the dealer room, because he's not looking for new stuff he may be haunting the flea market.
4) The Seller – sometimes the seller and the buyer are one and the same. Generally this is the guy that is getting out of the hobby or changing direction in the hobby or just needs to make room in his house. He is likely going to make a significant amount of money and is equally likely to spend this money in the dealer room (assuming he gets paid at the auction and doesn't have to wait for his money or can spend up to that limit and will pay off CCs when he gets his funds) because he is looking for the new stuff.

#4 is the reason the dealers at conventions with an established auction don't care about the auction. They know that I'm generating money on Friday night that is likely to be in their hands on Saturday. Now this is a different story with bigger auctions like Origins and GenCon, very often a seller won't receive his funds until well after the auction. But again if the seller's intention is to spend money at the con then he knows what he can spend.

Again I know next to nothing about how Historicon is run or what the attendance numbers have been doing. All I know is in the world of US game conventions its one of the largest and I'm actually surprised it doesn't have an auction already.

As a new auction I would be surprised if you had more than 150 lots registered to sell. Figure an hour to register lots, 90 minutes to sell and maybe another 30 – 60 minutes to check the sellers and the buyer/sellers out so call it 4 hours, tops, most of which is paperwork.

>My own auctions are an integral part of the Denver conventions. as they are with most game conventions. They are not an add on event and in fact serve as an additional attendance draw for the convention organizers.

DING DING DING. Bingo.

It's a foreign concept to HMGS, I get that so it might be a hard sell and a harder thing to get off the ground. Fine, we can drop it and move on. But I am glad the above was said because it's 100% correct. In many instances the flea market, auction and dealer hall at a game convention is what draws in a large number of people. I know that sounds crazy to some of you but not everyone who attends a game convention goes to game, or to game all day and all night. Auctions and flea markets are huge huge draws for people to attend a show in the first place. Take them away and you suck off a group of people that would otherwise be attending. And when you take away the money those folks make and then spend in the flea market you loose money as well.

The snowstorm had nothing to do with it; I'm talking about the entire section that was empty, as in no tables were purchased, so there was a hole in the layout, just like Fall In.

I don't sell "solely 54mm plastic figures laid out plainly on a table."

Are you serious with that comment?

If your going to on my product offering, then have a clue as to what I sell.

I sell prepainted 54mmm to 60mm metal military miniatures that are widely collected by thousands of people around the country, others game with them.

I have a very strong following at the wargaming shows; the AVERAGE foot figure runs 40.00 to 80.00, the AVERAGE mounted figure runs 90.00 to 170.00.

Many of them are Russian style painted figures; you know, like the Aeroart figures you are trying to peddle over on the Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier Forum.

I also sell 15mm, 20mm and 28mm figures and terrain "and the like" as you put it.

I am the US agent for Kennington, SHQ and Newline Designs, I am also the east coast agent for Monday Night Productions, who produce the old Scenic Effects buildings, rivers and roads.

I buy six tables at Cold Wars and Fall In and two booths at Historicon; do you honestly think if I was breaking even or losing money I'd be laying out that much money show after show, year after year?

Again, if you are going to throw stones at what I sell, they have a clue as to what it is exactly that I sell.

And for the record, I have not a bad show since the first time I attended Fall In at Gettsyburg, which was no big deal because I made a mini vacation out of it.

You have no clue as to what I sell at the shows and even less of a clue as to how I do there.

Get a clue before you try to rip someone.

>Again, if you are going to throw stones at what I sell, they have a clue as to what it is exactly that I sell.

As long as you agree to get a clue as to how the flea market works economically and literally within the context of game conventions and HMGS. For a long time your postings here have indicated you don't. Someone has to educate you.

>Many of them are Russian style painted figures; you know, like the Aeroart figures you are trying to peddle over on the Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier Forum.

The key in that sentence is "like". Last I checked you don't actually sell the extremely valuable and highly collectible St Petersburg/Aeroart 54mm pieces. There are a lot of "Russian Style" figures on the market designed to be more accessible and less expensive that the real thing. Good for you for tapping into that market. Hope you do well selling them.

>do you honestly think if I was breaking even or losing money I'd be laying out that much money show after show, year after year?

Great, then we shouldn't hear very much more from you on the topic of how the flea market is sucking away money and buyers from the dealer hall. Sounds like you are doing just fine. Problem solved on your end.

>And for the record, I have not a bad show since the first time I attended Fall In at Gettsyburg

Great!! As I just said guess you won't be suggesting the flea market is sucking away your customers anymore. Good for you!

Right; don't forget to keep us posted about all those PMs and emails you're getting saying yes to your idea, while most everyone here who has voted has said no.

So the voters here are saying no, but the PMs and emails are saying yes.

Got it.

Is your last name Barnum by any chance?

Will do! I plan to keep folks informed, and ultimately what HMGS decides about hosting it at Hcon, or if we do it at an outside venue.

That was in fact the entire point of this thread, not to debate the politics of the dealer hall and the flea market.

Hopefully now we can return to people saying yes or no (mostly no) and pros/cons of the original idea under discussion. If we have 10% of those attending Hcon be interested it would be a smashing success, so we shall see.

You're welcome P.T.

In all the excitement, I forgot to vote.

That would be no.

One thing I have not seen mentioned is how much the auction will pay the convention.
I pay for a flea market table and dealers of course pay for booth space.

I assume that those most keen about having auctions and running auctions (for a "fun" time?) are not doing it for fun and giggles. What is your cut of a sale? Let's suppose you sell a painted Trojan War army for $375. USD What is your cut?
What do you pay to the convention or are you assuming you will be there gratis?

All good questions thanks for asking.

The auction would not take a cut from items entered into the auction or from those sold in it. There might be a small $1 USD-$2 charge for a bidder card to allow people to bid and that fee would go to HMGS. I can see charging a small 10% fee on each item sold and likewise that would go to HMGS. The tiny group of volunteers putting the auction together wouldn't take any cut or get paid for doing so. Would HMGS allow the event to be run for free? Well as outlined above they would make money off of it. Does HMGS charge the group of volunteers who run the flea market to run it? No they make money off the sale of the actual tables. So an auction that has each bidder paying a tiny fee to the con for a bidder card and possibly a small fee on sold items would in effect not be running the event for free. If 50 people show up to bid that's $50 USD-$100 HMGS gets. If the auction sells $5,000 USD worth of stuff that's $500 USD to HMGS.

+1: I asked that question back on Page 1 – still waiting for an answer.

Ever since I lost out on a bid to buy some zulus at a Hurricon in Tampa for my school gaming club to Richard Borg, I have had no interest in bidding on figures. I kid Richard about it when I see him. He is amazed I still remember. And guess what, as of the last Hurricon he still has them all these years later.

"That $500 USD to HMGS". OG pays 1000's of $ for their tables at Historicon.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Hmmm $4,500.00 USD in profit for someone…………this orginization does not need money we're doing just fine. What we do need is positive change and take care of the people who have been there for us. I'm all about people making money but when it impacts the businesses who have always been there for us this is a problem to me. I hope the board see this for what it is an opportunity for someONE. That dealer hall funds our square footage that we game in. Bottom line where else can you go for a weekend for $20.00 USD for all you get. Lose the hall and that all changes. Some people want this and would love to see it. Go back to the rule of one flea market table session per weekend and this all stops. It will fill the dealer hall. Maybe even lower the cost of tables or booths. This whole situation over the past several years is going to make me more active in what goes on. I can't complain then. Positive change for everyone and this hobby that I love and has been passed down to me by my 83 year old father.

OG pays $1,000 USD for their tables which they have set up at Hcon Thur Fri Sat and Sun. An auction would likely be paying half the cost of what OG does for a three hour slot in one small side room. And that is a bad deal why??

And the $4,500 USD in "profit" for someone? Millercop16 seems to be suggesting that one person would make that money. Uh, no. The someone is who ever puts their stuff into the auction, including the dealers if they wanted, not the people running it who get nothing from that. The money goes into the pocket of the sellers and can be spent anywhere including with the dealers. And the dealer are free to put whatever they want in the auction.

I don't recall hearing this much consternation over the charity auction held at Cold Wars and Fall In in the past where a lot of stuff is also bought. In fact I'm pretty certain they make about $3 USD-$5k also though all of it goes to charity meaning none of it can go back to the dealer hall at all.

No from me, J. I will probably be selling at the flea market getting rid of the accumulated wargaming and related material of decades. I like meeting and haggling with the buyers. We also have a charity raffle at the con I believe.
And I believe we need to give the dealers a fair shake at selling their products as well. The dealers are collectively a big support of our activities by buying space and sponsoring games. Without them I doubt our conventions would have been so successful. I have no doubt that auctions work in other places though.

I just noticed Joel's comments above re flea market. We have beat this issue to death many times. I have known Joel for many years and have enjoyed buying from him. I also hope he knows that a lot of what I have bought from him for many years was funded by my flea market table sales. I also have sold to dealers who resold items they bought from me and I have no problem with that. The flea market for me is a bit of a liberty issue. If it hurts the dealers so badly please provide some financial figures. Sometimes it is the only way I can justify attending the convention. And I have seldom if at all not bought anything in the dealer hall. The dealer hall has always been for me, especially as a young, poor wargamer, a chance to obtain little soldiers without fruitlessly searching to find who has what and waiting for weeks for an order from a manufacturer. The seventies and early eighties were tough for finding product until HMGS came along. Especially when the manufacturers flocked to fantasy figures and abandoned historicals for a time. Joel, I just don't buy that changing the flea market model is going to translate into huge profits for the dealers. We limited it before where the tables were sharply cut back and guess what, it had to go back the way it was. Like many people I know say, it's all a trading system that seems to work for us. I sell to Tom. Tom sells to Harry and Harry sells to me. Everybody's happy.

vonLoudon, my remarks where in response to jpipes remarks about paypal and credit cards being accepted in the flea market. With the with ability for people to accept these things on their phones, means that more and more people who run a miniature business selling used items will be able to participate in the flea market. These people are not generally individuals that reinvest that money back in the dealer hall, nor should they be expected to.

The flea market was designed for the person who is looking to weed down their piles of miniature stuff that they no longer use or want or decided that period will never be played. It is the place where we sell the impulse buys that never happened on the gaming table.

Personally, I believe the push in the flea market area for HMGS east to allow the use of phones for people to accept paypal and credit cards comes from the individuals that run second hand shops – they are buyers and sellers of used games, not individuals cleaning the gaming out the gaming closet.

The age of the computer and smart phones has changed a lot of things in our lives. The web pages may have done more to impact trade show sales then things like flea markets. I do not always get over to the flea market, but I do hear a lot of people complaining about the rising prices in the flea market with the most common come back when the price is questioned as, "well that is what they are asking on Ebay!"

Thus, the question, is HMGS model of selling space for dealers, whether you be a flea market, auction or manufacturer out dated due to the impact of the electronic age? The computer has impacted every type of business, why should we think that it has not impacted ours?

I am now supposed to believe that there is a small corps of dedicated auctioneers that travel the country to hold "fun" auctions, and they get NOTHING out of it but a glow of well being and thrills. Am I getting this right?

Well, if it ever comes to a vote of HMGS members, mine would be "NO".
Not that the members ever get to vote on anything, but this is my sentiment.
The dealers in effect subsidize the conventions. I sell off my stuff at a loss at my flea market table so I can pay for my room, food and purchases in the dealer area. Oh, and I bring some home for groceries.

All of these post are useless because when it comes down to it the decisions will be made by the BOD. If certain people are "in" this auction will happen because it has already been discussed in detail. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. The ringleader is definitely a dealer weather it is new or used goods. I have no problem with that and have bought items from him. He is quite pleasant. Too many negative things have been going on in this club of ours over the past several years from big time theft of money, Baltimore abortion, the Host Dump and so on. We need to get back to basics and plan tell everyone where the money is spent, what comps for "volunteers" are given find a new location that is state if the art and discuss options to keep everyone happy regarding sales. We need to embrace other types of gaming. Have the dealers run demo games at night to preview products. Something different so much complaining and bickering is counterproductive. Opportunities in 2016 are there. BOD please have the state of union meeting at a time when all the membership will be available. Let's move forward together. Cliff Brunken for president!

>my remarks where in response to jpipes remarks about paypal and credit cards being accepted in the flea market.

Keeping in my my **opinion** is that a) it's no ones business how someone is paid and b) these sources of payment are as simple and easy as writing a check, and they are no longer the sign of someone running a business anymore than writing a check is. THAT SAID my **stance** is if the rules say don't do it, those are the rules which I support following. Please don't suggest I'm advocating the rampant and clandestine use of credit card payments because I'm not.

>I am now supposed to believe that there is a small corps of dedicated auctioneers that travel the country to hold "fun" auctions, and they get NOTHING out of it but a glow of well being and thrills. Am I getting this right?

Pretty much. Are the guys who put on huge 28mm wargames at HMGS events that spend upwards of $10,000 USD doing it for fun? Of course they are. Are the guys who volunteer to run the flea market right now as it currently exists doing it for fun? Of course they are. Do they guys who volunteer to do the worst job of all at these conventions, the registration folks, doing it for fun? Well maybe not for fun but out of commitment to help out, but they too aren't getting paid. One doesn't need to be paid to be interested in doing something that gives back to the hobby. Auctions are a fun, exciting, enjoyable event at many game conventions around the country that are usually seen as a value add to the event organizers, those who sell items in them, and to the dealers who make money when those folks bring their earnings to their booths.

I have been an auctioneer at Origins and Gencon among other places. I would frequently spend up to 30 hours auctioneering and helping with the auction admin. What I got out of it was being involved with the auction, helping the fellow staff, and helping the convention itself. So yes the answer is there are people that love auctions and take part in them for fun. I was never paid a dime for my work with the Gencon auction. The most I ever got was my admission comp'd, the same exact thing GMs at HMGS events get and nothing more.

And for the record I am not a dealer. I am constantly upgrading my collections by buying newer and better units and figures which allows me to cull out those I don't need. If I see you selling 500 figures that look better than those I have I will buy them in a heart beat and then sell off the ones I already had. It is this constant growing and cycling that helps me maintain my collection and expand my interests. I sell stuff to buy more stuff, including from the dealers. One show I'm fixated on Russian Civil War, another show it's WWI Africa, another show it's LRDG, another its ACW, another it's something else. In my house to get new stuff old stuff has to go to make room and I have a lot of stuff.

jpipes, you did bring up a point that has been discussed before, especially when the show moved to Valley Forge. There are those that want HMGS to allow all options of payment in the flea marker, because they are available on phones and are now generally being used by the public.

When you made your remakes, it made me think that yes the electronic age is effecting all business across the board, look at what it has done to all the major book stores in the US. Thus, it is also effecting the conventions, and it is something that HMGS will have to look at, especially if more dealers find attending convention not be worth the cost of going – and the cost of going has far more to do with everything else involved way beyond the flea market. Why do you think that there is a growing number of dealers who once attended the HMGS shows now run 20% sales on TMP during the show times that basically read, "Can't make the show this time!" Some make just much as they would doing the show, minus the time and expense of the show.

But, if HMGS allows all manner of payments in the flea market, then what is stop the used game dealer from setting up shop in the flea market? Right now I believe the flea market draws a larger crowd than dealer hall because dealers have web pages, which means they can always get what they want from them at a later date, the flea market is now or you missed it opportunity.

>if HMGS allows all manner of payments in the flea market, then what is stop the used game dealer from setting up shop in the flea market?

I don't know why they couldn't already set up shop there now? And that is a question not a declarative statement on my part. Why would allowing a credit card via a smart phone allow such a person to get a table there now versus any other time? They don't accept or want cash? I don't see the connection.

The rules don't state dealers can't sell in the flea market, they state they can't sell clear dealer stock in the flea market. There ARE dealers in the flea market but they are there as themselves not as a dealer table.

>Right now I believe the flea market draws a larger crowd than dealer hall

When the dealer hall opens there is usually a crush of people waiting to get in immediately. This happens on each day of the con. Then yes things clear out. Doesn't that make sense to a degree? If the same dealers are in the same booths selling the same things each show for 8-10 hours a day, all those people know what to expect, can go them and shop or buy what they need quickly and effortlessly, and move on to another booth or to play games or another event, or come back during the long hours they are open the following day. Casual shopping is done just like that, casually. The intensity shopping you see in the flea market is because that is an entirely different venue for buying stuff.

In the flea market when it opens there is also a crush of humanity waiting to get in as well, but the crowd may last longer because no one knows who will be selling where or what they will be selling because everything is usually one of a kind or old or used or out of print or whatever. The entire "treasure hunting" aspect is a huge draw for people shopping in a flea market and the intensity is higher simply because there might only be one killer deal of a particular sort or one item you are looking for in the entire place. That's almost never the case in the dealer hall. Therefore people might have to look longer and shop deeper to find what they are looking for in the flea market. Trust me, as the day goes on the flea market thins out as well.

let us just consider that you and I have different definitions of what we refer to by the word inventory. I use inventory in the same sense that it is used by a businesses, and that is sell-able stock. Inventory is not just prepackaged items, it is what you purchase with the sole purpose or reselling.

The issue with dealers is simply second hand dealers operating in an area that is designed for the gamer cleaning out excess or unwanted game stuff, or as John the OFM says, to cover convention expenses. If a person has part time job in this hobby of buy and selling used gaming stuff, then they need to be in the dealer hall. If they are a person who spends their time manufacturing items to sell in the flea market, they need to be in the dealer hall.

Indeed, we can agree to disagree.

>an area that is designed for the gamer cleaning out excess or unwanted game stuff, or as John the OFM says, to cover convention expenses.

You just nailed what I believe covers most everyone in the flea market, getting rid of excess or unwanted stuff and covering convention expenses. That's how I view it myself, and that's what I've witnessed in most of the people I've seen there. When you've been gaming and collecting for 25 years you tend to acquire a lot of stuff.

I sell prepainted 54mmm to 60mm metal military miniatures that are widely collected by thousands of people around the country, others game with them.

I have a very strong following at the wargaming shows; the AVERAGE foot figure runs 40.00 to 80.00, the AVERAGE mounted figure runs 90.00 to 170.00.

That's YOUR booth, Double G?? I have to hand it to you – I've spent hours drooling over the figures. If I had a place to display them, I would buy some in a second. I'm going to have to break down and get a figure at Fall In. They're simply amazing!!!

This may be a point that I sort of disagree on with jpipes. While I'm not sure about GenCon I do know that the auction for Origins was turned over to a for profit group (Weekend Warrior) comes to mind. My compensation as an auctioneer was usually wrapped around badges and hotel rooms. Not much else and I put in a lot of hours and its why I won't go back and do GenCon or Origins because while I love auctioning I do feel that compensation should be worked out, and someone is certainly making money at those shows, usually a split between the entity that is running the auction and the organization.
There are certainly shows where I do simply volunteer my help, the Denver shows among them. We turn over all the proceeds to the organization (although that probably won't be happening anymore with some of the changes going on). I have volunteered my time as an auctioneer several times at big shows just to be a part of the auction, but I didn't travel there specifically to work the auction I was there because I was working with a company or with a gaming group.

I guess the answer on auctioneer compensation is really "it depends". I believe the LA crew back in the late '80s early 90s was working as a group and did a split with the convention organizers, the Denver auctions have always been all volunteer with all the proceeds going to the organization (a non profit entity in this case), auctions being run by the Weekend Warrior or other similar groups have their own compensation system setup for since they basically bring in "guest" auctioneers.

Its not a simply question or a simple answer.

I agree with Otto. At Prezcon the auctioneers often bid on the items and were obviously trying to drive up the prices. The last time they pulled that stunt I just walked out.

Not for me.

Auctioneers bidding up prices is decidedly unethical. I would walk out as well. However, this is the first time I have heard of this happening. As I have said before if I'm bidding I will bid to the level I'm willing to pay and if I win it then I will buy it. I usually wait to bid though until another auctioneer has taken my place.

Absolutely appreciate your feedback Heisler, very good discussion.

At Gencon or Origins (more so Gencon as the auction at Origins is a mere shell of it's former self) you bet the folks running it take a cut, as does Gencon itself. They take a cut of your bidder card, a cut of everything you put in the auction to sell (they charge a fee per item to enter them), and a cut of everything that is sold (15% I believe). Considering they put in a weeks worth of work time on site non-stop and sell 15,000 items and bring in something like $150,000 USD, that's not a surprise. Also at Origins by law they were required to hire a licensed auctioneer to conduct the actual bidding and that costs money.

But those examples aren't appropriate for what is being suggested at an HMGS event since those two are massive undertakings involving a computer system, online tracking of bids and items, pre-registration, dozens of people and hundreds and hundreds of man hours. There are sometimes close to 1000 people in the auction room bidding at Gencon. They also host a charity auction which generates tens of thousands of dollars for a specific charity each year.

All that said when I was an auctioneer there I had my badge comp'd and that was it. I never was part of the group that "ran" the auction I simply provided my expertise in being an auctioneer as I have at dozens of game conventions.

An apt comparison would be Kublacon or a similar sized convention that has a one day or part day auction put on by a handful of people selling between 100 and 500 items.

So in the case of a possible auction at an HMGS event initially, likely for ever I imagine, the people putting it together wouldn't be paid nor take a cut. The intent is not to run it to make money but to give funds back to HMGS, to provide more platforms for people to sell their games, to generate more income for people to spend with the dealers, and to put on a fun and exciting event that some people really enjoy.

>Auctioneers bidding up prices is decidedly unethical. I would walk out as well.

Me too, though there is a significant difference in an auctioneer or a volunteer bidding on an item because they want it, and bidding on something to drive up the price. Every auction I've been to the volunteers can and do bid on stuff. In a setting where the people running the auction have no incentive to "drive up the prices" because they don't take a cut of the actual sale price there is no reason to do that. In an all-volunteer auction saying to the volunteers you can't bid on the awesome stuff in front of you is sort of defeating the entire purpose of being a volunteer which is to be a part of the fun in the first place.

I can certainly see the issue some might have with someone doing that at Prezcon or Gencon when they do take a cut of the sale price, but it's usually pretty clear to tell the difference between someone bidding up the price and someone that actually wants it for themselves. Case in point in any auction I've ever been auctioneering at if something came up I wanted I handed off the mike to someone else to call so I could bid on it. And If I bid on something I usually win it, so it's usually a moot point. But if someone just willy nilly bid on stuff to clearly up the prices because they didn't like where they were at, yes that would be an issue with me as well.

Please allow me to clarify my response:

No.

I just cannot get it around my head concerning this myth and urban legend that just will not die -- that there is this vast crowd of flea market people who come running to the dealer hall waving money to willy nilly hand out???
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ even the current HMGS convention director himself said people sell in the flea market and take that money to spend with the dealers. He agrees it's a good thing for the show and has personally done it himself, sees it happen, and attests to the fact it's real. I've done it myself, at every show in fact. Other people in this thread have said they do it. I've seen people do it at every show and heard them say when I bought some of their stuff they could now buy XYZ item they wanted with the dealers. It happens. A lot. Aside from the fact HMGS makes a few thousand dollars on selling flea market tables every show, it's a net benefit for the show and the dealers overall.

The quote below is directly from the HMGS convention directer himself, what more testament do you want than the person running the entire show telling you that you are incorrect if you think it's a "myth" or "an urban legend" that people who make money in WB spend it with the dealers?

"Not to mention, how many times must it be said that a lot, if not most folks in WB take that cash and run to the dealer hall to buy stuff…. I do it every show. And, at shows where I don't do well in the WB selling.. I spend less in the dealer area."

Thanks TheKing30, I appreciate the comment very much.

I can assure you they are metal.

Not plastic.

I did not say "no one does it" That being said, I just do not believe it is a prevalent as many believe. I am not talking about the guy that makes a couple hundred bucks -- I know for a fact that people have walked out with thousands !!!! I will add, there have been times that "HMGS" personnel have had a dog in this fight also as they in the end are also consumers and have agendas also ????
regards
Russ Dunaway

I can assure you they are metal.
Not plastic.

That never even crossed my mind. As a painter who has won a couple of "best painted" awards, I can really appreciate the effort that goes into those figures.

BTW – do you have a website? This way when I'm ready I can pick out the figure and see if you'll have it at the convention…

I will add, there have been times that "HMGS" personnel have had a dog in this fight also as they in the end are also consumers and have agendas also ????

They're human so they definitely have an agenda. That being said, I have seen them bend the rules to suit their own personal agendas – and that's plain wrong.

TheKing30; website is mmtoysoldiers.com, thanks again for your interest………….

Double G I must say, I must have had your table confused with another table at the cons that had plastic figures for sale. I like what I'm seeing and if your stuff is metal and not plastic all the better. I don't like that scale at all for gaming (holy cow the table you'd need) but I tell you what, we are all part of the same hobby right? Next convention I will be sure to stop by and pick up a figure from you as well. I collect Aeroart stuff so if you have anything close to that I will get one. I spend my money with the dealers, why not with you too? Provided you have a figure I like plan on another sale. Sound good?

Russ, it's prevalent. The person elected as the directer of HMGS to serve the needs of the members has posted on this topic a lot, I trust him to represent the matter fairly even handily.

A few years ago I saw an Alamo game at an HMGS convention with 54mm figures. There were hundreds and hundreds of figures on the table. I think it's a great scale to game in.

Wow that's crazy! To think what it must cost to run a game with that many figures at 20-40 a pop. At least moving or seeing the figs is not an issue!!

Jason,
Sounds good, will see you at Historicon.

The game Tumbleweed mentioned was run by one of my customers, he has purchased hundreds of Alamo figures from me as well as the complete Alamo compound.

54mm is becoming popular for skirmish gaming, plus none of us are getting any younger, so they are easier to see.