"Would you attend a game auction at Historicon?" Topic

I'm working with some folks on a potential opportunity to put together an after hours game and miniatures auction "at" Historicon. Not sure if it would be offsite but essentially near by or directly in conjunction with Hcon and on the PEL, but that's being worked out. It would be a cash or card only, pay as you go, 4-5 hours long affair. Items will be on display for preview and sold in quick succession to the highest bidder. At this state no tabs, pay as you go.

If Hcon doesn't work this time around, or if you can't make it would this be something you would be interested in attending at another event? What about if an 1-2 day game auction were held someplace in the US, would you make an effort to attend?

Thanks for your input!!

No, I would not. It is too big of a block of time, I find auctions fairly boring, and I don't feel like getting into a bidding war.

I went to the auctions at Origins and Gencon, why not H-con too?

I agree with 79thPA – four or five hours is too long. Maybe break it into hour slots??

No to real time auction. Agree with 74th Maybe a silent one.

After hours is like midnight to 7am. Are you suggesting midnight to 4am?

No.

Nope. I am generally far too busy playing games to go anywhere off site, and 4-5 hours is FAR too long even if it is on site. I hope it works out for you, though!

Hi

I love Gaming Auction and Fea Markets, So Yes Please.

If you did an auction on top of a flea market for three days, you'll lose a lot of dealers and lets face it they are the reason it only cost $20.00 USD for a weekend of gaming so be careful. Great idea for a satellite show such as NJCon or the Muster but one of the big three I would say no. But then again whoever runs the auction or brings the items for sale will make big money……….

The time is entirely dependent on what there is to be sold. Generally speaking at auction 1 item can be sold every 30 seconds to a minute, so on the slower side in 60 minutes you could sell 60 items. If there are 500 items to sell the auction will last longer, if there are less it will last shorter.

Items would of course be broken down into segments, so wargames would be sold in one time slot, miniatures in another, collectibles and rare stuff at the end, etc.

For those worried about the time it's not unusual for game auctions to run for an entire day, and we would not be aiming for that at all. To those so inclined it's always a lot of fun and very enjoyable. I don't see any reason a used or collectible game auction would interfere in any way with the dealers, but in any case I don't wish to discuss that aspect here.

After hours means after the flea market is done, after the dealer halls closes, and after folks are generally done with dinner, so 7pm til whenever. I think 4-5 hours might be more than we would need the first time around, so 3 hours would likely be closer.

After, before or during, you are bring something to sell, which means the people attending have to decide if they want to spend their money in the dealer hall, flea market or at an auction. And, since you will have the items up for preview, Which is the same as running a commercial or add, then you are presenting the attendee with a choice, do I hold off spending my money during the day or hope at night I can swing a better deal. And, depending on what night you hold the auction, will depend on how much it effects the flea market and dealer hall, or if you wait until Saturday night, it could effect what the auction takes in, and if the items have set minimums, then it could effect the price of the auctioned items drastically.

The above comments are only meant as a response to the idea that just because the auction is held when neither the flea market or dealer hall aren't open, doesn't mean that it isn't in the competition for the money spent at the show.

An Auction is a one item at a time flea-market. So when you have a flea market also selling stuff that would be at an acution, that's simply a waste of time.

Went to acutions at Gencon and Origins. Never bought anything, but a great performance.

Auctions are a lot of fun but not for me any more. I was totally burned off at an auction at PREZCON a big board gaming show, where the auctioneer bid against the auction attendees, bidding up the price of games because they "were worth much more." He didn't buy them, when interest was lost, he just returned them to the unsold pile.

When the auction closed several of us asked where certain items we wanted were. He said "They were sold in deals after the auction began.

To much shicanery.

Otto

No.

No. Tried the auctions at GenCon but couldn't stay there long enough or come back hours later to bid on the item(s) I wanted.

No.

No

Maybe a silent auction.

Probably not a live one.

I would probably be too busy running either my booth or a game.

No

Phil

No, not going to Hcon this year but that would be my answer for any convention. I'm there to play and shop between games.

No.

Thanks for the helpful feedback!

This will help us if we decide to do it at Hcon to determine how large a space we need and how long it will run, or conversely if we do it off site and among a small group of dedicated people.

From the comments posted here and that I have received via PM and email it's about 50/50 right now with a leaning towards the no's. A little surprised by that but it does seem folks at miniatures conventions seem less receptive to the idea of a game auction then at any other type of game convention, and the first time you try anything it will often be received less warmly. That said 50,000 people attend Gencon and during that time 15,000 items are sold to thousands of unique buyers so clearly gamers like auctions (and they sell a ton of miniatures related stuff too). It just depends how you want to spend your time and what you consider a value add at a convention you attend.

Again, thanks for the very helpful comments!!

no

No

I barley have time for the flea market, and vendor hall, when trying to squeeze im some gaming. So that would not work for me anyway.

Rare books and painted armies? Nope. Too many people will get all kerfluffled over exagerrated minimum bids, and "insulting" final bid if those minimums aren't set up.

A "blow-out" auction were people are just trying to clean out their closets, benches, and garages of stuff, and won't be insulted by people being "cheap"? Huge fan.

And yes, there's a whole different dynamic between being cheap at the flea market and cheap at an auction.

Our local con has done an hour long auction between the afternoon and evening slot for the last twenty years. It's not a classy GenCon one, but people bring their stuff and any item starting over $1 USD requires auction staff approval (it's mostly RPGs). Sure, sometimes that Gygax signed copy of the first printing of Chainmail goes for five bucks, but a box of Twinkies wen for $85 USD (it was in the charity category for the local food bank).

Silent auction sure. But a real live auction no.

No

Why not just pay for tables to sell your wares at the HMGS show like everyone else since that is the organization that has put forth the efforts to attract the desired crowd?
This is why OG has come to and supported these shows for years at the cost of tens of thousands of $$$$$.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

I certainly wouldn't run a game during the auction which means at least one dead evening as I think many who run games, or contemplate running a game, wouldn't want to compete with an auction.

I have been running the game auctions in Denver for 30 years now and I have worked Origins, GenCon, StrategiCon and DragonCon in addition to my own. My experience with all those events is that miniatures don't do well in auctions typically because even in those big shows the miniature player just does not attend. That seems to be the general consensus here as well.

The Denver auctions typically have an audience of 150 – 200 that's roughly 10% of the attendees on Friday night. We accept lots for 1 hour and start selling at 6pm typically running till midnight or 1am. I think this attendance is pretty typical for most of conventions. I don't consider that to be a significant percentage of the gaming population and its really unlikely to upset either the dealers or the folks selling in the flea market.

I would expect most of the items to show up at an HistoriCon auction to be well painted armies and OOP miniatures and rulebooks. I would guess that the amount of boardgames and RPGs would be pretty light, its just not the audience. I certainly wouldn't take my boardgames to HistoriCon but I might take my old Heritage Lord of the Rings minis that are still in blisters, or something along that line.

There is nothing that says you have to stay at the auction the entire time. While I usually have the 150-200 in the audience the whole time there are probably another 100 or so floating in an out. We also realize that people have other things that they want to do so we allow people to make requests and get requested items up within 15 minutes. So if you spot that OOP mini that you just have to have then you can request bid it, on it and be on your way. I would certainly recommend doing that for an HistoriCon auction as well.

I can easily sell an item every 30 seconds and I prefer that fast paced style. However, an inexperienced auctioneer can make things excruciatingly slow and painful. The GenCon auctions are dull beyond belief because of the slow style they have. A good auctioneer can really make an auction fun to be a part of even if you aren't bidding. You have to pay attention when bidding though my job is to get as much money for the seller as I can and I don't want you to think I want you to react. I can get more money for an item in 20 seconds than some auctioneers can get taking over a minute.

An auctioneer that is bidding items up just because he feels the item is worth more than that is being totally unethical. The whole concept of a minimum or starting bid is that is what the seller is willing to accept for his item. If I bid on an item and win the bid then I buy it just like everyone else.

After all that rambling I think an auction could be quite successful at Historicon it just adds another event opportunity. If you have an hour in between games you can stick your head in and maybe grab that crucial missing piece mini you have been looking for. Again, while it might compete with the flea market crowd it really isn't going to bother the vendors.

"Why not just pay for tables to sell your wares at the HMGS show like everyone else since that is the organization that has put forth the efforts to attract the desired crowd?"

Exactly.

"Why not just pay for tables to sell your wares at the HMGS show like everyone else since that is the organization that has put forth the efforts to attract the desired crowd?"

Well said.

We have supported HMGSE shows for 15 years.
If you want the shows to survive and thrive, support them. Otherwise don't complain when they go away or move.

Personally, and I probably echo the thoughts most of the vendors that attend, the declining attendance of Historicon is making it a tougher decision every year. Unless the trend reverses, this may be the last Historicon we attend at this location. I spend too much time and money to prepare, go and support the show and sell my products to see the trend continue.

How does having an auction impact the dealers area? It doesn't as far as I see it. And an auction is a totally different platform than getting a flea market table. I will fully admit if there is any reason *not* to have an auction it might be because there is already a flea market, but certainly the two are not in any way mutually exclusive of one another. I've been to plenty of game conventions that have both a flea market and an auction. They do well and lots of people enjoy one or the other or both.

That said my experience has mirrored yours Heisler. I've been an auctioneer at multiple conventions across the country including Origins and Gencon. Miniatures sell well but to a very small cross-section as compared to the board war gamer crowd that is usually very well attended.

No's are definitely outnumbering the yes votes from here and via PM/email. That said the jury is still out. If we don't do it at Hcon specifically we may do a game auction offsite with an invite to all those so interested in taking part.

How does the auction impact the dealer hall? It impacts in the same way that it will impact the flea market – there is only so much money to spend, and what you want is a single venue to get part of that money with out having to lose your audience to either the flea market or dealer hall. Why else would you to run the auction when all other venues have shut down for the day?

By wanting a time and place that is separate from the other venues, who have paid for space and the right to sell at the convention, shows that you understand it is not a different platform. The platform is still selling something and hoping that the consumers in attendance are willing to spend their money with you rather than in the flea market or dealer hall.

Nope. I wouldn't want to invest the time. To be honest, having the vendors happy about attending is more important to me than any value added by an auction. I was at the same auction Otto described above, at Prezcon. It went down pretty much as he describes-- the auctioneer routinely bid on things he personally didn't feel were going for a high enough price and then tossed them back when people got scared off. If that's how these things are being run, deal me out.

Not interested. It would take too much time from what I'm really there to do: PLAY GAMES. Now if it was a silent auction, then maybe.

>If that's how these things are being run, deal me out.

I've never been to Prezcon, but as an auctioneer at other events I can tell you that is NOT how they should be run.

>It impacts in the same way that it will impact the flea market – there is only so much money to spend

Which is not only incorrect, it also totally leaves out the fact that many people make money to spend in the dealer hall by selling stuff in the flea market. If the dealers are having issues with making money they should look at what they sell, how the sell it, and how they run or operate their business. The flea market or a used game auction is not what is causing a drop in sales.

>The platform is still selling something and hoping that the consumers in attendance are willing to spend their money with you rather than in the flea market or dealer hall.

There was and is no desire to see that money is spent in one place versus another, certainly not be me anyway.

>Why else would you to run the auction when all other venues have shut down for the day?

The interest in having it after 7pm was to make it a fun, after hours relaxed event for people to attend after they've been gaming during the day and to allow dealers and people that have flea market tables to take part. The dealers are constantly complaining that the flea market being run during the same time as the vendor hall is open is a problem because they can't attend. So my thought was to suggest an auction be run after both are closed to not interfere with attendance at either.

It's not about attendance.

It's not about how money is spent.

It's about having (as proposed) 3 different venues/locations where the attendee will have to decide where to spend their money.

The Dealers pay to sell in the Dealer Hall. As has been stated previously: what they pay enables a low weekend rate for the attendee.

"If the dealers are having issues with making money they should look at what they sell, how the sell it, and how they run or operate their business."

Really-? So whatever 'issues' they are having – you want to add another by diluting potential disposable income further.

How much are you going to pay HMGS to allow you to run this auction-?

Look folks, this was not meant as a platform to discuss how bad the dealers at HMGS have it and how so many things take away their life blood. This was a question about a small, fun, light hearted and exciting game auction for those with an interest in taking part. Those who aren't interested have made their opinions clear. Some dealers have spoken up. Enough. I don't want to discuss the politics of where people spend money. I don't prefer to infantilize HMGS members to the point of carping about them not having enough money to spend if too much stuff is presented to them. This in part a rich mans hobby. There is plenty of money in the hobby to support it all assuming there is a market for what you are selling. Fact is people will spend whatever money they want in multiple places in and large numbers if the items being offered for sale are of interest. End of story. If there is demand there will be sales. I'm not interested in debating the politics of the dealer hall.

If you have anything more to add please send me PM and if it's constructive I will certainly add it to the list under consideration.

And btw lest it be construed otherwise I am a big supporter of the dealers. Love what they do and offer. Spend as much as I can with them every event and I encourage everyone I know to do the same.

Let me clarify my position.
(if it really matters to anyone)

1. I am the furthest thing from an "anti-competition" person. Bring it on -- as long as we are all on a level playing field. I have said publically on other threads that I would like to see Companies like Wargames Foundry, 19th century, etc return to the shows and be in the dealer hall which I believe would be a draw for more people to attend.

2. No complaint at all with the Flea market as long as it is a "flea market" where gamers bring their unwanted gear to sell it. I do have a problem with credit cards, flyers being posted telling people where to by a product at certain gaming tables, etc. just to circumvent the paying of dealer hall prices.

3. Only Real "wargame specific" product allowed -- I guess we could have Pella windows have a booth because someone may want to build a wargame room? I even wish GW would come --the one time they did we shoved them off in an out of the way place ?????

4. Any real complaint I may have is probably really directed at HMGS -- who willingly take dealers(who play by the rules) money and then take a free for all attitude toward the market inside their conventions --- I don't really know how much longer I can abide by that after 25 years?

jpipe, I do not know you and have no malice toward you in any way -- You say you are "working with some folks" and "a small group of dedicated people" so it sounds to me as this is a business venture? Both you and Heisler -who has chimed in- both seem to have plenty of experience on the auction circuit with plenty of data,info,etc --why not just pay your way if you intend to use HMGS as your platform, and -- if you do it "off site" as already strongly hinted at -- well then -- it is really none of our business is it? Also, I think the theory that People who make money in the flea market to spend in the dealer hall is not as true for everyone involved as it once was.

No doubt that the way business is conducted has and will drastically change --if you think kickstarter has not effected our market you are wrong --good or bad it is here --just like the web.
This is just another thing that can have an effect on the decisions that real business has to make in the direction they take in the future.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ you are right I have always supported the dealers because I understand you guys pay quite a bit of money before you sell a single figure. I also understand without the dealers the price of admission will go up. The most important reason is I appreciate you guys and have many friends in the hall. The flea market is great don't get me wrong but things need to change when you have the same guys selling at every show and at every session. That makes you a DEALER and should have to pay just like a DEALER. I'm sure you would like to have a flea market table,no. I've noticed the deals are going away and to be honest with you some prices are retail. I'm not saying the flea market should go away and the possibility of an auction does sound interesting but we need to make sure you guys are well taken care of FIRST. We all need to remember the purpose to get together is for our hobby and preserving it. The new board has an opportunity to really make some positive changes and we should all support them. Enough of my rumbling when I get a chance I'll post my Thesis on how I think the shows should be run…….that will stir the pot.

Dear Russ

Why don't you come to "The Weekend" we put on at Lancaster in late June. This year it's the 18th to 21st. We don't charge dealers fees at all because we have no dealers. Oh we have several dealers who come and game with us, Dennis Shorthouse comes, (On Military Matters) and so do Rick Massie and Dave Doty, (DPC). They often take orders from customers and deliver them at the game convention. You could do the same, say you are going, offer to take orders over the net, bring them with you and transact them at "The Weekend." No need to brign a huge pile of stuff. Then once the transaction is done, you can turn around and play games with the rest of us.

Otto

Russ, I don't know you either though if you are associated with OG I'm sure you are a good guy. I love OG and have a ton (literally) of your figures. No issues with you or OG whatsoever.

You said

>2. No complaint at all with the Flea market as long as it is a "flea market" where gamers bring their unwanted gear to sell it.

As far as those I have seen at HMGS conventions this is what the flea markets are. Rarely do you see anything but this.

>I do have a problem with credit cards, flyers being posted telling people where to by a product at certain gaming tables, etc. just to circumvent the paying of dealer hall prices.

Let me address a few points here.

Credit cards: not sure what this has to do with anything, two parties making a purchase should be able to pay using whatever means they choose either cash, check or god forbid that simply technology everyone in the country now has, paypal via a smartphone. Restricting that is silly and pointless and doesn't help anyone anywhere. That said I rarely see anyone using credit cards in the flea market, it's an almost exclusively cash operation which is exactly why so many people take that money to the dealer hall to spend it after they make it. I know that's what I've done in the past and many others like me.

Flyers: I've never seen flyers for anything in the flea market. If it happens I haven't seen it, and therefore can't really comment on it. In theory so what if someone did, letting folks know "hey I've got 3 DBA armies for sale today at 3pm" is about a benign as you can get, but hey if it violates the spirit of the flea market so be it and they shouldn't do it. But I've never seen it happen myself.

And the biggie, circumventing the dealer hall prices: This doesn't happen. People pay $20 USD to have a single table for 3 hours (and that's with no signs, nothing under the table, no displays, and no security). Dealers get to offer their goods for between something like 17 hours and 25 hours depending on the length of the show. They have the option to have booths of varying sizes and with all sorts of additional perks like lighting, displays, on site security, etc etc. My understanding is that dealers pay between $75 USD and $300 USD-$400 for a booth depending on the size and location. When you compare the relative costs they are essentially the same. $150 USD for an average dealer space for an entire show versus $20 USD for a single table for 4 hours. For those folks who have a lot of crap to dump in the flea market and get a table in multiple sessions they might up their time allotment to 9-12 hours and pay up to $80 USD to do so. That's having to load and unload their stuff each session, can't leave anything set up over night, limited space and means to put stuff out, etc etc. So this entire idea the people in the flea market want to "avoid paying dealer hall prices" is false. Add to this fact that there are up to 75 tables a session for people to rent and HMGS makes a considerable amount of money off the people selling in the flea market.

>3. Only Real "wargame specific" product allowed -- I guess we could have Pella windows have a booth because someone may want to build a wargame room? I even wish GW would come --the one time they did we shoved them off in an out of the way place ?????

Not sure if you are speaking about this in regards to the dealer hall or flea market but I've never seen dramatically off-base products for sale in either space. The most far flung I've seen is people selling jewelry in the flea market, or likewise things for the ladies in the dealer hall. Think once or twice I've seen a recruiter for something job related in the dealer hall, but that's it. I don't disagree though the show should remain focused on it's core mission, games and wargaming.

>4. Any real complaint I may have is probably really directed at HMGS -- who willingly take dealers(who play by the rules) money and then take a free for all attitude toward the market inside their conventions

Not sure what you mean here. There flea market has a list of at least 25 very specific rules that each person selling there must agree to and follow. They have staff that walk around and enforce the rules before and during the flea market as much as possible. The flea market is set up under very specific guidelines and it's pretty much the same each and every time. What are you referring to when you say it's a "free for all" as compared to the dealer hall. I've never seen it be a free for all, ever.

>You say you are "working with some folks" and "a small group of dedicated people" so it sounds to me as this is a business venture?

No, not at all. Not a business venture in the least. When I said I was working with some folks I was referring to a small group of game collectors I know and they frequently attend the HMGS shows. An unassociated group of friends who like to collect games and/or like to attend auctions. We started the idea that putting together an informal auction at a time when many of us are at the same place might be a good fun idea. There was no formal organization and there was nothing business oriented about it any more than the group that runs the painting workshops are a business or the people that put on the war college discussions are a business. Just a group of people with a similar interest that thought it might be a fun event to hold in conjunction with a major game convention.

>why not just pay your way if you intend to use HMGS as your platform

I'm not sure what you mean with this comment. Regardless of what happens to the idea of having a fun small game auction I plan to attend every HMGS convention, pay my full admission, take part in many of the events, and spend my time and money in the dealer area. If a group of friends decided with HMGS approval to host an after hours auction at a show, great. If not, no problem and we might decided to get together somehow somewhere to do it outside of HMGS at or around the time the shows are held (and when many of the folks interested in doing one are in the same location). That's not a threat or something, that's just a matter of logistics and some friends making arrangements. Letting people know about that possible option here is done not as a nuclear option but because many people have contacted me expressing interest in such an event so they might like to be aware.

>Also, I think the theory that People who make money in the flea market to spend in the dealer hall is not as true for everyone involved as it once was.

Not sure what you are basing this on. Maybe OG is experiencing reduced sales? I don't know and can't say either way. But I **personally** spend a great deal of money that I make from the flea market in the dealer area. I know a ton of people that do the same thing. What I DO know is many of the same dealers have been attending the same shows in the same booth with much of the same stuff at the same prices for years and years. If one of those dealers experiences a drop in sales don't you just maybe think it might have something to do with the fact buyers are tapped out on their product, or they know they will attend the next show, or they have bought what they need from them, or they can get most of the same items online from them anytime, or… the list could go on. The point is a drop in sales performance from a dealer doesn't have to be (and isn't) related to someone spending money in the flea market. Besides all that, my personal experience is I spent a lot of money in the dealer area after selling off my junk in the flea market. I've seen people around me do and say the same thing so I know for a fact it happens.

Millercop16 said

>The flea market is great don't get me wrong but things need to change when you have the same guys selling at every show and at every session. That makes you a DEALER and should have to pay just like a DEALER. I'm sure you would like to have a flea market table

There is nothing stopping a dealer in the dealer hall having a flea market space. That is a misconception. The rules as they are written and based on the desires of the dealers themselves is that product that is clearly new, unopened, dealer stock (multiple copies of shrink wrapped games or racks of unopened blisters, etc) is not to be sold in the flea market. It doesn't say dealers can't have a flea market table, it simply states you can't sell stuff that is clearly dealer stock. This is a reasonable and totally understandable rule and one I fully support. But there are no restrictions specifically on Old Glory or whomever also having a flea market table just because they are a dealer. The point of the flea market is to sell non-dealer hall stuff and that is what happens now. Guys and clubs selling off their armies and books and old figures and unpainted lead and board games and collections from fellow gamers no longer with us, etc etc etc.

As for having tables in multiple sessions and/or at multiple shows… Some examples of why this isn't an issue nor should it be. There are game clubs that spend all year getting ready to attend one of the HMGS shows. They plan games to run and rooms to crash in and meet up at and yes they rent out a space in the flea market for a few sessions all weekend long. It helps the guys that attend get money to pay for their room and travel and to spend in the dealer hall. Some of the guys circulate in and out during the flea market sessions while they all sell off their crap. They do this each show for years on end. So what?? It's a great system that helps them cover their expenses, sell off unwanted stuff, and get more money back into the hobby and the dealer hall. I've seen other people (and done this myself) who took on the responsibility of selling off a gamers collection that passed away to help their family and that can sometimes take not just multiple sessions at one show to do, but multiple shows! Other guys just love the horse trading and haggling of a flea market, it's what they attend the conventions for, they enjoy selling off their stuff and finding new treasures for their collection. And so what? All of these reasons are valid and trying to impose some top down anti-competitive egalitarian controls so no one has more than x time in the flea market is not only silly it's unnecessary. If the big concern is that the dealers are loosing money to the flea market (which as I have pointed out is not correct) why not just cut right to the issue and tell the buyers they can only shop in 1 flea market session? Or why not put limits on how much they can spend in the flea market? Just issue tickets and as you pass through the door someone punches your ticket and boom you can't return once you leave for another session. Right, those are silly and unreasonable suggestions that's why you wouldn't do that.

To the original point, having a table for more than one session or at more than one show doesn't make you a dealer, selling dealer stock or from a brick and mortar store back home is what makes you a dealer and that is what is not allowed already in the flea market. There is nothing to stop Old Glory from having a flea market table now or any other dealer other than them having the people and time to host one. But that's the same issue for anyone. Do you play in a game or sell crap in the flea market or walk around the dealer hall or go get something to eat? These are all choices each person makes with their time at every show.

The Silent auction conducted on some of the empty Flea Market table would be a good utilization of time and space.
I would not be able to stay for the entire event but checking it out would be good especially if displayed and not just stacked in the corner.

Credit Cards – according to HMGS policy, the use of credit cards defines you as a dealer, which then means you shouldn't be in the flea market.

jpipes, in regards to flyers and such, TMP is a good place to look prior the show, as people will a post like "I'm running a game, and after which I am selling everything" There was one manufacturer that use to post signs all over noting where he could be found if you wanted his product – and when these signs where point out to HMGS board members by a variety of dealers, the response was "that proves nothing"

Like you, I know people who use the flea market to make money for their side hobby business in the flea market. I know of one painter that normally does between 3K and 5K in the flea market, and spends very little in the dealer hall, as he doesn't like playing retail for much. And, when individuals show up year after year with inventory to sell, that makes them a dealer.

And lastly, when I was talking about your new venue effecting both the flea market and dealer hall and you question that it doesn't, in both your above post you talk about the limited amount of money that the attendees have at the show. Some do sell stuff in the flea market to cover their cost of attending as well for new purchases. That simply means that adding a new venue, which even by your description of being a group of game collectors. You can define it as a fun time, but it has a purpose of making people money, which means the attendees have to make yet another choice of where to spend that limited amount of income they have for the show.

I was just an attendee at conventions before becoming a dealer. I had X amount of money when I attended, which meant that I had to decide, do I want these items of a dealer, or something that I found in the flea market, afford an impulse by for a new project I hadn't considered, do I eat at McDonalds or eat the hotel food, stay at the hotel or motel 6.

What I am saying is not dealer woe, but for you to think that adding a venue like an auction (whether fun or not) does not add to cutting up the attendees disposal income into another slice of pie, is simply not understanding of how retail work when it comes to the consumers disposal dollar.

>but for you to think that adding a venue like an auction (whether fun or not) does not add to cutting up the attendees disposal income into another slice of pie, is simply not understanding of how retail work when it comes to the consumers disposal dollar.

Well Miniatureships, another perspective is that offering more ways for people to make money by selling their stuff will offer more money for them to spend in the dealer hall.

I also think by that statement you don't understand that in any market consumers purchase whatever there is a market for. If you are selling something they want they will buy it. If you aren't selling enough it means the market doesn't want what you have to sell. That's not being mean that's just how markets work.

>Credit Cards – according to HMGS policy, the use of credit cards defines you as a dealer, which then means you shouldn't be in the flea market.

I follow the guidelines for the flea market when I am there. That said credit cards are different than using PayPal. And in any case if a rule exists I'm fine with following it, cash is king. But setting this arbitrary standard that if you can take a card it means you are a business is silly. That model worked like 15 years ago it doesn't any more. Anyone, including my grandmother and aunt, can use and accept credit cards with their smart phone and a free app. At one time to accept a credit card you needed to be a business with a business account and purchase or lease credit card equipment and pay a fee for the service, etc. That clearly meant if you went to the trouble of all that you were a business. Now if I go out for pizza and we split the bill my friends can pay me back using a credit card I run on my own phone. Anyone can accept credit cards as easily as a check. And PayPal is just as easy. I have a phone the buyer has a phone we can both login and and make and check the payment, item sold. Why does it matter to anyone else how someone is paid? That is no longer a measure of someone being a dealer or a business.

jpipes, don't take anything I said as an attack, personal or otherwise. I know these things are very welcome at GenCon and Origins. My personal experience has not been very favorable but I have to commend you for coming up with the idea. a willingness to volunteer your time and efforts is a scarce commodity these days and I don't want you to be 100% discouraged just because the response is overwhelmingly negative. I hope there's a workable compromise for that might work. I don't see it, but it might exist.

V/R

Walt

I can't comment on any of the Historcon policies or practices, I have never managed to make it out for the show.

Silent auctions are very space intensive and take a lot of set up time and basically need to have all the lots registered in advance. What that means is that if you decide at the last minute that you want to put something in the auction the number of spaces are quite limited and odds are you won't get your lot into the auction.

I don't think its feasible to set up for a silent auction in the space that the flea market would have vacated. The items really need to be on display all day and the bid process needs to be going on all day. That means you also need pretty active security to make sure things don't walk away. From the standpoint of the auction staff its a much easier auction to run. The other major problem is making sure that the person who "won" the bid actually comes in pays for and collects his "winnings". I would definitely not recommend a silent auction in this kind of venue unless there is dedicated space available for at least a 24 hour period.

We run both tabs (requires a deposit) and a pay as you go for folks that win bids. Sellers are paid at the end of the auction which means they have money available to spend the next day in the dealers hall. So the amount of money available to spend has actually not decreased it has simply changed hands to another group who are very likely to be spending it in the dealer hall. So I find arguments about money no longer being available for spending in the dealer hall to be mute. Its still there just in someone else's hands.