"In defense of ...Out of scale stuff." Topic

You know the boiler plate from the difficult players post.

Is there any defense for the use of out-of-scale stuff in a game. This goes from mildly out of scale (for example "o" scale figures in a 28mm game) to hugely out of scale stuff.

For example, I can see using, and often do, use out-of-scale stuff to emphasize a scenic or formation to draw attention, or simply because there is no "in-scale" product available. Out of scale things show up in classic arts all the time.

To a degree.

Using 1/56 with 1/50 or 1/48 scale items, or even 1/43 cars in 28mm game, sure. Sometimes there is no choice as not all items are made in the same scale.

Also, different companies have different views of what is 28mm.

But 20mm tanks used with 28mm figures, or 15mm vehicles with 20mm figures?

See my earlier post about heretics.

I use a 28mm scale Eldar Wraith Guard model in my 6mm Iyanden force.

In WW2 games, I've heard of folks that use 1/48th scale tanks with 28mm infantry and they look fine. This is mainly because 28mm figures these days are pretty bulky with rather large heads. The heads are probably similar in size to 1/48th scale plastic infantry which are usually sculpted with more realistic proportions.

I've also heard of folks using 10mm buildings in 15mm massed combat games because they fit on town templates better.

John

I've used 15mm troops with 6mm tanks before. So no problem.

A lot of people use "one size down" buildings for games other than skirmish. Bear in mind the usual vast difference between the ground scale and the figure scale.

Come to think of it, that is the ultimate defence on this one – we are already using two completely different scales!

We've used 28mm scale buildings for 20mm games, but rarely any other out of scale gaming.

I use larger figures when I want to draw attention.

In my 18th century games I mount all my infantry regiments on one stand, 28 privates, 2 Musicians, 2 NCO, 2 Colors and 2 Officers (30-33mm) on one stand with a generous margain in the back for the label with the troops tatistics on one side and a small diorama on the other. This will be like a dancing girl flashing a sergeant. or in one case two officers sitting at a table eating. Behind one is a large "0" scale figure of a 50's drive up diner on roller skates with a tray in her hand striking the classic pose.

Rizzo goes to war.

No.

Otto…you games sound like a thing of beauty. Would love to see, sound great.

I use 6mm buildings with 15mm figures. Unless your ground scale = figure scale every game has out of scale items.

I note most gamers limit trees to a few inches often making them mere shrubs instead of mighty oaks…

Dear B6GOBOS

Thanks, if you want pick up one at the HMGS cons where I usually put on games. If you want and can get there, come to my house in North West New Jersey on April 4 and take part in one.

Dear Iron Duke 596

So you would not like the Jannisaries in my "Empire of Ikea" Army which has as a musician a Jannisary figure converted to be a one-man band. Drum on back, accordion in front, brace of wind instruments in front of him, cymbals between his legs, and a xylophone or glockenspiel on a mast over the drum on back. I call them the Bennenjerries and they are dressed in orange, green, and raspberry-- like sherbert. They're not quite out of scale but some of the instruments are.

I have no problem with mixed sizes within reason. I wouldn't mix, say, 6mm and 28mm figures, but I game, for instance, 10mm and 1/144mm interchangeably and un-apologetically.

Also, I might mix a 1/144 plane with a 20mm ground force to make it appear like the distance is greater between the air unit and the ground (or a larger aircraft with smaller ground units to achieve a forced perspective effect).

Generally, though, I don't really mind the mixed scales.

I purposely use different scales for perspective. For example, I use 1/200 aircraft over my 15mm WW2 games. They're on flight stands and represent a flying aircraft at altitude.

Close is acceptable. The Wings of War WW1 SPAD looks like it;'s to 1/160 scale not 1/144 scale like all the other models. It's just about OK on the table but only just.

Lots of us use under scale buildings to reduce the footprint.

Similar scales works for me, dissimilar scales don't unless it's an air game with a ground target.

I have used larger15mm-scale vehicles with small 20mm-scale figures and 1:200th-scale buildings … and it seems to work. As long as it doesn't look ridiculous, I don't have a problem with it.

I actually thought about using 10mm tanks with 15mm infantry before, to get around the problem that a tank takes up way more space than an infantry stand does.
Never got around to it.

I did use some 1/72 scale ww1 Germans as ratlings in a 40K game once, but it looked terrible.

I have a problem with under sized buildings mainly when there is fighting inside them or they are being used for cover and movement around them. I like 1 to 1 ground scale in keeping with the minis foot print.

I must be one of the few who doesn't get the under-size building thing. When I have figures in a town and they can look over the rooftops of the buildings that just doesn't look right to me. In fact it looks outright daft and is probably one of the first things that stands out to me. Why not just use fewer buildings to represent the town then?

The following only applies to historical periods where we already know how big things are or should be. In fantasy/sci-fi who can say or argue?

Figures of different scale are less noticeable unless you are talking about using scales that are very different like 15mm and 28mm infantry.

Vehicles are less of a problem.

In my games things tend to be scaled to match. 20mm vehicles with 20mm infantry fighting around 20mm buildings.

Eye of the beholder…I've seen games where a musket would not reach from one end of the church to another, because it was 350 yards long in ground scale, despite being in scale to the figures.

Think about Johnny Reb. 1" = 40 yards. How many buildings would be more than 1" square? How big would your average ACW era home or even church be?

I prefer the "look" of a village being 5 or 6 too-small buildings rather than one big honking farm house.

Back in olden times we had Roco Minitanks and Airfix figures, 1/87 scale vehicles and 1/76th scale figures. Now the figures are generally 1/72nd scale and I still use by Roco Minitanks and they look just fine to me. I do mix figures, and have some as small as 1/87 and some as large as "big" 1/72nd troops, but not so large as Valiant Miniatures which are huge.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

I use 6mm buildings with 15mm figures, and 2mm buildings with 6mm figures.

I also always use sub scale aircraft (aircraft look small…).

On the odd occasion I have used mixed scale ground forces, like 6mm artillery supporting 15mm troops (the guns are far away…). On one occasion we used 15mm and 20mmm troops together, we put all the 15mm stuff at one end. They were far away…

It looked fine.

I freely mix 1/76th and 1/72nd scale vehicles, even throw the odd 1/87th scale into the mix (which I also use with 15mm stuff).

I really don't care, as long as it looks OK.

gotta chime in on this one,too. Crispy,Meister and Martin got it right. with figures i cant see a mix. there is enough size variation with range mfgs now as is. but i am talking about major size differential, not splitting hairs like the slight difference between 1/72, 1/76 and 20mm.

as i am just now getting into "skirmish", i still have issues seeing huge structures, trees etc, just so a figure can be placed inside.
please, in no means is that last comment meant to be a reflection or discourtesy to those who do use larger structures.

as said, if it looks okay and your rules cover it…fine and good.

Sam

Think about Johnny Reb. 1" = 40 yards. How many buildings would be more than 1" square?

The majority of non-skirmish rules use models to represent more than a one to one ratio of buildings. Usually they represent multiple buildings. A small number of buildings equals a town, city, etc. You don't have to use gigantic buildings like a church, mansion, etc in that scale. Your basic abode would probably work. Then again the size of your gaming table might dictate using the smaller buildings.

Assuming you are using 25mm figures and want to strictly apply this ground scale measure across the board, are you ok with each miniatures representing a 40 yard tall man or horse?

Not trying to provoke any aggro here, just curious.

I game in 15 and 6mm. I am never really going for a "birds eye view" look. Rather, some blend between that and a "situation table" like you see in war movies – just a map with simple flags or models (Midway, Battle of Britain).

This is one of those situations where what looks "right" to me looks wonky to you and vice versa. We are going "scale" but we have different scales for figures, terrain, vertical, etc. So you make the compromises you like.

I make a base in ground scale that represents the footprint of the village then populate. If it's only single buildings on the table I use buildings in scale to the figures. If I have actual villages/towns, then I drop down to 6mm.

Watched a DBM game at the club once with 6mm Pontics vs 15mm Romans.

Looked a bit odd but the bases were correct and it worked.

Mixing scales works for my sci-fi gaming.

In space combat games like 5150: Star Navy, Galactic Knights, and Starfleet Wars, the scale of my starship minis is 1:9600, while that of the starfighters is 1:1200.

And in OGRE, I use the 6mm (1:285) minis with buildings from various editions of Monopoly, which are probably 3mm or 2mm scale or smaller.

They all look good together on the table.

I must be one of the few who doesn't get the under-size building thing. When I have figures in a town and they can look over the rooftops of the buildings that just doesn't look right to me.

It doesn't look right to me either, but going "one size down" doesn't usually result in this phenomenon.

Yep, done it with buldings; with figures, only with a HOTT army.

Cast your minds back…to the pre-golden age of the 70s and 80s. You want to have a decent sized force for your WW2 games but half of the manufacturers are making stuff in 1/72nd scale, the other half are making it in 1/76th and Airfix are still insisting on calling it HO/OO. The trouble is, some of the stuff you need is only made in one scale but not the other so the manufacturers are forcing you to mix scales. What do you do?

Of course you mix it up! So what if one platoon is slightly taller than another? So what if that Churchill VII is about 5mm longer than another one? Try to minimise the visual clash by grouping them in different platoons but why quibble? The same goes for 15mm/18mm, 25mm/28mm and 1/56 vehicles and 1/48 or 1/43 as well. I can't get modern or at least post WW2 vehicles in 1/56, I have to opt for 1/48 or 1/43 from time to time….the manufacturers have put me in that position.

So stop worrying and do the best you can with what you've got.

I started in the hobby on 2003. But I agree, Uber, I mix it up all the time and no one has ever noticed!

I started the hobby in 1963. If you didn't mix and match, you didn't play.

Oddly enough in my 18th century armies while I do not mix them on the same stands I have everything from 25mm classic mini-figs to the 33mm Surens, and that's a dozen different manufacturers and styles in between. No one ever notices. They EVEN don't notice the diorama's in the back of the stands, or when I have out of period figures on the table (like Nappy's and so forth. I am convinced they see the unit as a whole and that is that.

You want to have a decent sized force for your WW2 games but half of the manufacturers are making stuff in 1/72nd scale, the other half are making it in 1/76th and Airfix are still insisting on calling it HO/OO.

The differences between these scales is minimal to begin with and have been commonly lumped together since the 60's.

Mix 28mm infantry with 15mm infantry and I'm sure someone will notice.

Agree with you thre Otto – they see a game piece. They don't overly critique once the game starts…

I started a hobby in 1963 too, O Schmidt: life on planet earth. It's helped pass the time for 52 years.