"Color or style? And other problems" Topic

So looking at doing Blucher Eylau 6mm with Adler, as Baccus dosn't have early period russians.

Since Eylau happened in a snow storm, naturaly it would be smart for the french to use geatcoast, but that removes alot of color, grey and brown coast, and the bicorns are not as colorfull as shakoes. To bland?

The other problem is that while Adler got propper early russians, they do not have them in geatcoats, Granted they might be more acostumed to winter beeing russians, but it's weird to have them all running around like it was summer, while the french looks like a bunch of pussies with their winter clothing.

I always favour having my troops in full colour uniforms. Just 'cos it looks prettier! They are more versatile, as well.

Greatcoats seem more important than slightly different shakos on 6mm figures, particularly in a battle taking place in a snowstorm. Spend extra time making cool terrain.

If it makes you feel any better the French typically fought in coats even in Spain. They found the loser fitting coat to be cooler than the tighter fit of the uniform jacket. I guess in colder weather they wore both.

There is a quote, god alone knows where I read it – a British officer describing the French infantry at Waterloo: 'wearing coats, as they always did.'

You thought about going a bit old school and using H&R? I think they look better proportioned than the current 6mm ranges.

Russian regulation was (still is, when not in operational gear) greatcoats from 1 September through 31 May. This was by their calendar – so Borodino was in uniform coats. They were pretty strict about it. If they had a spell of warmer weather during the "greatcost months", they wore the greatcoat over the shirt. Also, when not in formation or walking-out dress (off post), they would wear the greatcoat or just shirts year-round. Some units made up off-white (un-dyed) light canvas smock-coats for fatigues in summer, later regularized as the китель / kitel'.

Sidenote : There was a pretty extensive search for viable uniform coats for the first victory parades/reviews in Paris in the Spring of 1814. Most units had worn out or lost most or all of their uniform coats, and had not been paraded in them since the previous August. Officers who could ran to French tailors. Other ranks tried many expedients (including painting re-cut French uniforms) to try to get some of the men into uniform coats. Most units paraded only a fraction of their listed strengths ….

Shako differences in 1806 compared to later Russians should be meaningless, especially in 6mm. Might be a few grenadier miters still in use, be very ew outside of the Pavlovskiy regiment.

But the real issue is the knapsacks. From July 1808, they went from the obr. 1802 (cylindrical and hung by a single shoulder strap) back to a rectangular design with two straps (rather similar to those used during the reign of the Emperor Paul). That would be the most noticable difference, and possibly even visible in 6mm (???). By late 1806, none of the old rectangular ones would be in use with front-line troops, and the new rectangular ones would still be 18+ months in the future.

- Sasha

Gunfreak,
We have early Russians in Greatcoat should have listing up at the weekend, range is basically march version of the RA codes.
Alexandre
The difference between kiwer and the earlier shako pretty noticable to me, have you actually seen any 6mm stuff? You seem to dismiss the figures as if they were just blobs………..if you havent be happy to send you some.

Thanks, Leon! that solved most of my problems!

Do you have a release schdual for your ranges napoleonic and others? I would love to have a look!

I really want to do Eylau, my favorite early battle, and James R. Arnolds Crisis in the Snow is problebly my favorite book on the whole period.

It would give me an excuse to do snow bases and terrian(something I havn't done yet!)

Leon look for my order next month!

Leon,

"The difference between kiwer and the earlier shako"
Oh, no! no! I was not thinking "blobs" at all.

I was saying that I was not sure that you could see the difference between shakos of obr. 1803 for non-combattants vs. shakos of obr. 1805 for combattants vs. shakos of obr. 1808 (issued from 1809). The latter was worn through 1812, and into 1813-1816. These had very minor differences, mostly effecting (internal) construction and materials. The obr. 1808 shako was extremely similar to the French model 1806 shako, and some captured French shakos were issued in late 1812 through 1814, mostly to second line formations. The Russian obr. 1816 (issued from 1817) shako was similar, but enough taller (about 2.5 inches) to be seen in 28mm, and likely on smaller models.

When you say "kiver", I think you are referring to the concave topped shako that appeared with a few Guards officers, late in 1812 and early in 1813. It became a sort of fashion, and more officers did begin to wear them. There are also a few contemporary images of other ranks wearing them in 1813/1814. These are mostly interpreted as units that re-equipped from German suppliers during the campaign. There is absolutely no evidence of an "obr. 1812" official model of a shako with concave top. Indeed, after the peace, there were instructions issued specially against this style.

So, if someone has a head for figure with a flat top shako, other than some changes in decorations like pompons, they are really "good-to-go" for Russians 1805-1816. But, for late 1812 through the summer of 1814, one could choose to give an officer (or a whole unit) in the forces fighting the French the concave top style, for variety.

Russian jäger do have a headgear "issue" : in 1802 they adopted a short of top hat. This would have been worn through the campaign(s) of 1805-1807 against the French, being replaced with shakos from Spetember 1807. In this context, one might also note that the jäger in the Caucasus, Orenburg region and Siberia may never have had the top hat, but instead retained tricorns until equipped with shakos, at a (so far) undetermined date before 1811.

- Sasha

One of the most hateful things about the internet is that you have no idea who you are talking to.
Well an awful lot of sources have got it seriously wrong then and I suspect my chain being yanked.
Would love to engage Sasha but unfortunately dont have the time or paitence.
L

Great information by Sasha (as always!), albeit it leaves most of us with "Russian infantry 1812" a little bit, well, irritated. How we happily indulge in counting buttons and the like, and than this major mistake! Let's face it, uniformoly is error-prone – and I won't throw away my "Kiwer"-Russians.
Re greatcoats: a soldier of the k.k. IR 4 (Hoch- und Deutschmeister) tells us, that they wore the greatcoat even in July, namely at the battle of Wagram.
As an reenactor I've always found the greatcoat (worn over shirt and vest) being most comfortable, but it proved to be terribly hot in real summer weather.

Yes , the whole kiwer scuttle top do s seem to have been discredited of late, but we all have them and they look "Russian", so I think it will take a while to get us warhamers out of the habit.

Leon – Sasha has pretty good info and has contributed much useful information so patience is well advised – he is definitely not knocking your produ

Marc

Yep, Alexandre/Sasha has been a very helpful and knowledgeable source of information on the little-known Russian army, so no chains in evidence to be yanked. ;)

Leon,

No chains at all. I am not like that.

This new research on concave topped shakos is indeed new (last 12-15 years or so). The problem seems to have been ….

The basic core work on Russian uniforms, a huge illustrated research effort led by A.V. Viskovatov acting under direct orders of the Imperor while some of the participants were still alive, said this about 1812 shakos (Mr. Conrad's translation) : "1 January 1812— All combatant ranks are given a new pattern shako [kiver], lower than before, with a greater spread or widening toward the top and indented sides, with flat brass scales on chinstraps; as was already the case for officers, the shako no longer has the sewn-on earflaps and neckflaps (Illus. 1323). Along with this, the previous high, open collars are changed to low ones closed in front with small hooks and eyes. The soldiers' integral leggings [kragi] and the officers' boots are to be high and up to the knees (Illus. 1324), while officers, in order to reduce their expenses, are permitted to have white shako cords, sashes, and swordknots instead of silver ones, and forged brass appointments on the epaulettes instead of gold."
See link
The source for this noted as "From transactions in the Archive of the Commissariat Department of the Ministry of War and evidence from contemporaries." – this is quite unlike most of the other source notes, which quote a specific law or regulation.

Now, when modern reserachers really went carefully and looked at the Archives of the Commissariat Department, they found the instructions about collars (they were to be done in the regiments, on existing uniform coats, not cut into usage with new deliveries), and the leggings (they even found patterns). And there are quite a few surviving "low cost" officer uniform elments (they seem to have been in use for quite some time, and the instruction just regularized an existing practise). There is even correspndence about brass chinscales as a modicifcation to existing shakos in heavy infantry units.

But …. there is nothing about the concave topped shakos. So, after lots more looking, it is now generally considered that the source for them in Viskovatov is the part about "evidence from contemporaries" – that is, people (all officers … no one was going to write to an enlisted person and ask, as they mostly could not read) described them to Viskovatov's team, showed examples, etc. and the team more or less assumed that this had been ordered, or wrote a sloppy source note, or both. But in fact, they were a fashion for officers, and supplied to rather few units getting new covers made in Germany while on campaign. Finding the instruction to stop wearing this style from late 1814 rather sealed the issue.

Everyone since they were published looked at the Viskovatov illustrations and saw a "unique-Russian" style in the concave top shako. This was especially convenenient because the obr. 1808 shako was more or less just a copy of a French design. And the concave top was a neat-looking design. So, for celebrations in 1872 and esepcially 1912, thousands of them were made. And, in the latter half of the 1800's, artists would show them routinely in iconography. From these roots, the depiction of this sytle migrated into foregin-language works outside of Russia.

So they are cool, uniquely Russian, and did see use (even for whole units) to a limited exent. So, there is no real "problem" even for button counters to have models with the concave top shako. But, on the other hand, there is no need to field miniatures with this design, if you have heads with the obr. 1808 shako and want to depict a unit from 1812-1814, as most units continued using the obr. 1808 (some adding brass chinscales) until the replacement design issued from 1817.

- Sasha

Easier to fix : The Viskovatov also mistook a proposal for a change in pompon distinctions for the new regiment/battalion organization of 1810 to have been implemented. It wasn't, until after the peace. So, many many sources have the "wrong" pompon colors.
See link
Mr, Gingerich also give a summary about the concave topped shako.

Research marches on… :)

I to have learned of late that the kiwer was not present at borodino,mand mabye not even by Leipzig.

But still the 1809 shako is very different from the 1805 one. so the point stands.

1805 on left , 1808/9 in center

1808/9 for officers (no ear/neck flaps)
link

1808/9 for other ranks

1805 for other ranks

- Sasha

And no cords, those are the biggest things.