"Sell me on 7th Edition" Topic

Hey y'all,

A few gaming buddies and I are considering playing some 40k again after a long while. We're all content to play Rogue Trader, but there's some interest in tryi he newer editions (none of us have really played since 4th edition).
I'm aware of some of the general changes, but I don't know how it really plays out.
The other concern is that it seems force composition has changed. As we're just playing each other casually it's not a big deal if we're not competitive in any real sense, but the sort of forces we had (which were mostly assembled before 4th edition) are light on vehicles, generally fairly heavy on troops and simple elite forces (ie converted troops who count as vets), and stuff like that… If the game is really geared towards vehicles and flyers now, will mostly infantry matches be fun?

Does 7th edition require codices to try out, or is it like 3rd edition with mini-codices in the big book? And if it requires codices, are the current lists different enough that older codices would be unusable even for a quick test game?

It requires codices to work and they have to be no older than 6th edition (rules references in older ones will cause issues because although the names have stayed the same for some, the rules for them have all changed.)

It's all about the big toys in 40k currently – one of the reasons I stopped playing it.

I am not a GW hater by any means, but I am afraid the upgrade cost of yet another edition with multiple codices has halted me. Many friends have gone with the new ed and seem to prefer it, but I just can't do it. So, if you and your mates are happy playing what you have, I recommend you stick to it.

While I don't play it anymore I see lots of games on at my club. The big toys are the main focus. I can't see any rationale for flyers hanging around on a battlefield in 28mm, even in most 6mm rules they come in across the table and are gone but in 40K they are there dealing destruction in every turn. The tables look too crowded for any sort of manoeuvring once you're set up.

I'm with tmason.

We are also looking at getting back into 40K. I'm not buying all the new codexes. We will probably start with 3.5 or so.

It reintroduces the Psychic phase, but otherwise not much different than 6th. The best reason for upgrading, however, is not the sarcastic responses some would suggest, but rather that if you play the latest version, it will be much easier to find opponents.

Damon.

You will still need to buy the codex's for the new stat's.
But one good thing is the 'Unbound' armies.
That means you field what you want on the table and don't have to use the force lists, just total up the points as normal.

As others have said, 7th edition requires Codices. All the editions from 4th onward have been without army lists. Anywho, this would be my advice…

If you and your friends would even be considering playing with folks outside your group, you really have no options other than to buy the current edition and the relavent codicies. Know that the current prices for the rulebook is $85 USD and Codices are $50 USD each. You can usually save about 20% online and the "mini-rulebook" from the boxed set can often be found on ebay for around $30. USD Still, each player is looking at at least $80 USD in book costs.

If it really is going to be just your group, maybe try 6th edition? The rulebooks and codices for those edition are available for massive discounts and IIRC, the game isn't fundamentally different from 7th. There are 6th edition mini-rulebooks on ebay for $12 USD shipped or less! 5th and 6th edition codexes (nearly all are compatible with 6th edition) will usually cost you $10 USD or less.

As for myself, I just wasn't willing to plunk down the $160 USD+ in books (rules and 2 codices) it would take to bring my two armies into 7th edition when I rarely play anymore. When I want a big ridiculous battle, I get out the warpath 1.0 rules (basically Kings of War with a few mods) and enjoy gaming with my 40k figs without the additional cost and with a fraction of the rules. As seen here: link

As for myself, I just wasn't willing to plunk down the $160 USD USD+ in books (rules and 2 codices)

Really? Why not? Seems like a bargain, especially for folks who haven't spent Dollar One on an army or two. *rolls eyes*

MAN. That's a big buy-in just for rules. Yeah, yeah, internet discount, color pictures, blah blah. Those are dang expensive mandatory army books.

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Ok, just checked the latest prices on Space Marines, the gateway army for 40k. I'm not big on price-whining but wow…just…wow.

Yep, the cost was just too dear and if I didn't already have armies the start-up cost would definitely be higher than I'm willing to pay.

I'm not going to sell my armies. They're both fairly strait forward compositions and not likely to be unplayable anytime soon (Blood Angels and Imperial Guard). Further, if I someday have to move to a locale where 40k is the only game in town, I'll pay the exorbitant amounts of $ for current edition rulebooks in order to my game on.

'Til then however, I'll play all the other games I love and use Warpath 1.0 when I feel the need for apocalpyse-level mayhem. If I do get the urge to paint up some grimdarky'ness I've got multiple unassembled units for each force and an army of squats.

I was reading (more) the Horus Heresy books recently. Maybe I should dust off Rogue Trader and introduce it to my group. That was always a fun game.

The only thing Rogue Trader has going for it is nostalgia. I get that yearning for the old days of 40k but to be honest, the rules were pretty bad. Over complicated and not very good for running a force of any size in a reasonable time without headaches. I think if you want to go old school, 3rd or 4th is better. 4th because if you have the rule book it has army lists included (Except for newer armies like the Tau).

Better yet, pick a different system and mod it. It's what I've done. There are even some already done out there. In the Emperor's Name is one (I haven't tried it).

In the Emperor's name is a good one, but it's only really suitable for warbands (5-10 minis per side) I highly recommend the 2nd version which while not as shiny is actually a complete game.
link

2nd edition isn't a bad set of rules if you keep special characters out of it, cut the unit sizes down and keep it at the platoon level. Any bigger than that and it begins to overload.

Rogue Trader. Just do it. Play with what you want to. Be happy.

Tomorrow's War, include the supplement if you want. Does 40K better than 40K.

That said, the new edition is what you'll want if you play at a shop/tourney, or intend to.

So, I play a ton of SF, mostly in 15mm. I've played Age of Madness, 5150, Tommorrow's War, Stargrunt… This ain't my first time on the river boat.
The thing is that a good portion of my gaming group has some level of brand loyalty to GW. Theyve stopped playing 40k, but play Relic and the new RT RPG.

In a sense I'm just trying to get the tabletop skirmish games flowing again-- right now it's just my own 15mm models being loaned out and myself essentially refereeing scenarios (written by me) to try out whatever rules in currently in the mood for.

I do enjoy this, and so do the others, but for different reasons. It'd be nice to have something a bit more "each person learns the rules, makes their own force, and has at it." For whatever reason 40k is still the only game in our collective history that has resulted in this (I was hoping Age of Madness would do the trick but no luck).

In defense of 40k there are some good reasons for that: even in the wild Rogue Trader book, the lists of weapons and characters seem to suggest a certain force-building component. There is enough "rock-paper-scissors" to feel like you're making strategic choices but also enough weirdness and little interactions (between range mods, armor mods, cover mods, S vs T, BS variance, following fire, slow weapons, etc) that the right choice is heavily varied both on who you're facing and what the situation (terrain and range, other targets, etc) are. The same is true of modern 40k, made only more intense with FOCs and army lists and special rules (up to 4th at least, which is the last time I really played). This makes it inherently good for pickup games and a certain sort of campaign (the kind where the same few armies fight each other on different fields and maybe can assign slightly different weaponry each time).

Most games I've played don't quite hit that mark. 5150 for example, though being great for gritty scenarios and campaigns, and having good tactical interactions and so on, doesn't (at least for mysel) inspire a sense of assembling a force and wanting to test it against others. I can't say I know exactly why-- it could just be that the FOW-ish abstractions made by 40k compresses enough interactions into the skirmish scale that it works.
Age of Madness on the other hand has this appeal, but in a more restricted sense (as the range of unit types is somewhat less). In other ways it is a better game than 40k.

And on Rogue Trader ("just nostalgia") vs modern 40k: I disagree. First, I started with 3rd edition. I only tried RT (and a little 2nd edition, as well as a good amount of RT with mods from later supplements that make it closer to 2nd) later, when I read some battle reports and saw some pictures of models and decided it looked like fun even if it was slower.

Personally, I thought it was better than any modern 40k (2nd edition worked when I pretty much left characters out). Reacting to charges with fire, over watch (from a supplement) with overwatch canceling overwatch (covering fire!), duck back rules (for more intense suppression), cool psychic rules, bizarre but interesting lists (more variety in squads, unbounded lists implied), reserve movement, and so on… Ive had fun games of a 6-man pirate band pulling a bank heist and also games as large as any I had in 4th (100+ models a side, multiple vehicles) and it played in roughly the same time as modern 40k, granted possibly because people generally had a harder time focusing on the action and playing quickly with the modern games. I especially had fun with one big battle where the center was very right ruins blocking the vehicles and long range fire, in which marines fought marines in cqb with pistols, grenades, and swords, the occasionally suppressing fire from the outside suppressing the enemy just long enough for a quick charge…

Enough "nostalgia" (for ~ 5 years ago). It's true that we could just play RT… But the switch to RT was the beginning of the gaming group becoming ultimately more board game focused and otherwise "RPG-y" so that even with tabletop skirmish games it became that one guy-- usually me, for minis, someone else for straight up RPGs-- would essentially provide rules, setting, scenario, and everything but character choices for the rest.
All fine and well, but I do think that if I want something more pick-up-y then more modern might be the way to go.. And it doed sound like 6-7th edition fixes a lot of my problems with 4th edition rules and brings back parts of what I like about RT while adding more "force assembly" stuff.

The primary problem with RT and 2nd edition, was that people "over-scaled" it. They tried to play games that were too large for the system to handle reasonably. This is a common problem with all wargame systems. How many times have you seen people try to deploy a division with a 1 to 1 scale micro-armour system or re-fight Waterloo with a battalion level Napoleonics game?

If you limited your games to about 2000 points, both of the early systems worked (and still work) quite well.

Martin

7th ed is more streamlined than 6th ed, which some consider to be the "best" edition of 40K yet. It's also glossy, colorful and full of "eye candy" production value and not bad for the price. It's now split into three volumes, so you won't be lugging around a big book.

How about not getting into 40K unless you have around $2,000 USD dollars laying around.

Codexes are over $50 USD each Rules are around $80 USD+, GW Miniatures will not only set you back an Arm & Leg but your brother's Arm & Leg as well.

Today 40K is all about the large overprice Miniatures that GW wants you to buy 2-3 of each.

There is no balance in the armies and the Rules are horrible.

So as others have stated there are better Rules out there.

Tomorrow's War
Infinty

Oh and 6th Edition was not even close to being the best Edition.

I still think RT is over complicated, dated in its rule mechanics, and generally not a very smooth playing system for the results given. With that said, I see the appeal of the whackiness factor of the pure amount of stuff they crammed in. I still read it today for the scenarios, psychic powers, and old tech for ideas for my own games. I just try not to wear rose colored glasses about it.

Remember making robot programs from the Compendium?

I still love the Badab War section and the Mantis Warriors are an all time fave chapter.

Still, I stand by the statement that there are better systems out there these days.

We're just starting out with 40k and playing the 6th edition at the moment.

The big 7th edition book is full of fluff and pictures, but if you get the mini rule book stripped of all the fluff for about $20 USD it's not that bad to start out.

We'll be picking up the new mini rules soon. Our battles are in the 500 to 750 points range so we don't have the big toys on the table.

We used home rules with our small GW armies, but decided to try out the rules to be able to get more opponents and host games at conventions.

Khans, any word on your experience with 6th? As I've said my own experience was largely limited to the more simplified (compared to more recent editions) 3+4, and the more detailed (if in a sort of jury rigged way) 1st edition.

Hey RTJ,

We enjoy the 6th edition. The rules are not overly complicated but we did have to flip pages to find the details so the first couple of games were full of mistakes.

After a couple of games we got the hang of it (with some help from the guys here at TMP).

I was a little disapointed with the Ork codex. The fluff was recycled from the previous version but no new stories or battle reports to give you an idea of how to play.

I agree with the folks about the 9pt type. I copied the rules and expanded them to twelve point type. Put it all in a binder with notes to clarify rules or to reference pages in the main rule book.

We got the hang of it after about three games. Keeping the armies down to 750 to 1000 points makes for fun games without too many vehicles.

I get my figs at the convention flea markets so the cost is not prohibitive to build up an ork army. I socred a Deff dread, killa kan (both metal) and a deff kopta for $40. USD Figures off ebay are usually a good deal too.