"Cavalry Refusing to Charge" Topic

G'Day Gents,

Does anyone have any rules that determines whether or not cavalry may charge or not.

I do not mean dubious cavalry but cavalry of good standing.

Such as the British rearguard action near Genappe on the 17th of June 1815…when the British cavalry refused to charge the French Lancers a final time.

Or on the 18th when William Verner found that his regiment did not follow him.

Best Regards
Art

Not cavalry rules per se, but the movement tables in Fire & Fury and Bloody Big Battles handle this. Each unit must dice for movement. You can get a full move, a half move or no move at all. I recall ordering a bayonet charge on disordered enemy. I got no move. I guess the local CO wasn't ready yet or the troops were not up for it. You could roll a no move for cavalry, or a half move when the enemy are further away.

Or other rules have chargers (foot and horse) check morale to see if they charge.

Wasn't for this period, but I played in an Italian Wars Renaissance game once, where the cavalry historically stood by until a bit late in the battle.

Had to roll a 1D6 to start the charge, and roll a 6 to succeed on the first turn. 5 or 6 to succeed on the second turn. 4 – 6 on third turn, and turns thereafter.

Can't recall if the unit ever got into the battle, in the game, or historically.

I think the battle was Marignano.

So, you could use some sort of mechanic like that, if desired.

Perhaps, in your case, since it sounds like they did charge earlier in the battle, you could make it less and less likely to charge as desired, instead of increasing the likelihood, due to fatigue, disorganization, losses, etc.

In the "The Sound of the Guns" Napoleonic rules by Larry Brom (as well as most of his other non-skirmish horse and musket and rifle era rules) both cavalry and infantry units must pass morale in order to launch a charge. There have been many times in our various games where a unit has refused to charge. It's frustrating to the commander/player when that happens.

sergeants3.com/19.html

These rule sets also have a command response roll for each player's units at the start of every turn. Sometimes all of a player's units won't move. Then that's really frustrating!

Jim

We utilize Carnage and Glory, and cavalry can often refuse to charge based on forward momentum from the previous turn, the presence of a general, attempting to charge a square, morale and fatigue. This requires you to manage your cavalry squadrons or divisions of squadrons in a manner that will allow the "command" to support each other. It becomes important to allow units to recover while fresh units are fed into fights……

We play Empire V.
My cavalry have indeed refused to charge.

G'Day Gents

Do your rules also provide a chart that states whether or not the cavalry engaged the square or was just deflected to another object…or just turned around and returned back?

Best Regards
Art

ELAN does all this.

Republic to Empire, any unit wishing to charge must pass a morale test, the unit being charged must also test & if it passes may fire at charging unit. If any casualties are caused charging unit must test again.
Failure of the test can result in anything from "stand & do nothing" to "rout", so no guaranteed reaction.
Very frustrating when your unit doesn't do what you want, but that's life.

Both GdB and DBN require a 'test to charge'.

Interesting discussion – Doing some research for an essay at the weekend I was reading a lot of accounts, particularly of British battle tactics in the AWI and Napoleonic period, and was struck by how little the rules I have used over the years reflect this experience. Are there rules that allow troops to react to "wavering" in the enemy ranks? And yes there are numerous examples of troops (and generals)of all nations (but particularly the French) refusing orders, how often does that happen in a wargame ?

G'Day Gents,

Another concept that should be taken into consideration is:

Les principes de l'ordre separe

An example of this at a lower level is where a unit watched another unit in trouble, but refused to assist due to following orders of not engaging unless ordered by a certain General.

The principle can even be taken at division or corps level, in which case, the French abolished this system in 1805, the British shortly after…and Allies by 1913.

Wargamers who play at conventions on long tables should use this concept. Les principes de l'ordre separe in this nature permits various players to win no matter which side they are on.

Best Regards
Art

Whilst considering cavalry charges, does anyone incorporate teh fact that cavalry horses would get "blown" by charging and so be next to useless later on if overused too often/too soon?

Various references to cavalry being incapable of furtehr action later on in the day.

Or do "we" just rely on casulaties to reduce a unit's effectiveness and so minimise its impact if it is used too often?

I plan to use BP, but no it does not have a "blown" rule (GdeB does I think).

Hi Art,

answers to your questions:

1. Does anyone have any rules that determines whether or not cavalry may charge or not.

Yes, Grand Manoeuvre has something like this if commanders are attempting to act in response to new enemy threats.

2. Do your rules also provide a chart that states whether or not the cavalry engaged the square or was just deflected to another object…or just turned around and returned back?

This is to some extent implied in the combat outcomes, as cavalry may recoil away from a square.

Marc`s questions also:

I have optional fatigue rules which are for pursuits, but can be applied to situations like charges over difficult terrain. This affects the unit`s movement of course, rather than its fighting ability, but then pursuing cavalry are likely to be disordered anyhow.

Napoleonic Command from our own War Artisan has mechanisms for cavalry failing to charge home. The rules also represents fatigue very well.

G'Day Michael,

"Yes, Grand Manoeuvre has something like this if commanders are attempting to act in response to new enemy threats."

I have a Commanders Awareness Table as well…but I am thinking about one that determines whether or not cavalry may charge or not (in regards to the commanders wish).

As I also have a "Recall and Execution of Early Charge Table" which has inexperienced commanders possibly executing their charge too early…as explained by Dezydery Chlapowski…(Memoirs of a Polish Lancer).

Best Regards
Art

Art,

In that respect, my rules are in two stages too; I have a general`s initiative (commander`s awareness) and then a unit manoeuvre test – this actually brings the unit out of its present position or the command`s array, and this movement may be a charge.

The performance of units when in combat in GM is represented by the unit`s die roll – that is representing how the unit is managed up to and during the combat as a whole.

Best Regards,

Mike.

Our group rules require a test to charge a unit. Modified if leadership present, unit losses from action, and if enemy open order formations in front of testing unit. Also if the entire cavalry division rolls forward a positive to charge bonus (Divisional/Brigade charge).

G'Day Michael Verity,

I understand a modifier for leadership, but historically has a Division or Brigade ever refused to charge?

Best Regards
Art

there are numerous examples of troops (and generals)of all nations (but particularly the French) refusing orders, how often does that happen in a wargame ?

This happens in any wargame where units are not automatically activated. If you have limited commands to activate units, or you need to make an activation roll, then this represents the friction of battle, which includes units not receiving, or refusing to obey their orders. So it does happen in a lot of games.

GDB, Grand manner and Elan that I am aware of all require orders then a test to charge

Polemos General de Division requires orders and a test for cavalry to charge

G'Day Gents

The cavalry has tested and charge…

They win but fail to be recalled.

Do your rules have some system that is random for the next unit the cavalry must charge?

Best Regards
Art

Hi Art,

Sorry, I`m not too clear about the question:

"The cavalry has tested and charge… They win but fail to be recalled. Do your rules have some system that is random for the next unit the cavalry must charge?"

"recalled" – does this mean they are in pursuit of a routing enemy unit ?

"some system that is random for the next…" – the cavalry continue to engage/charge the enemy until commanders recall it or rally the unit ?

Regards,

Mike.

>but historically has a Division or Brigade ever refused to charge?

Probably as often as Divisions charged as a whole. I think most charges were still conducted by Squadron/Regiment, yes? Grand charges of whole divisions looked like many waves and not everyone heading out at the same time, yes?

My opinion from much reading is that cavalry units were often way too eager to charge when they were fresh. That is where your status and swagger was based. In my ACW cavalry rules (based upon Rally 'round the Flag), there is no morale check for cavlary to charge, but each charge or round of melee or retreat adds a fatigue counter. These each add a -1 to melee and morale checks which happen when units become engaged. So a unit which has charged and been in melee (or repeated melee)is down enough notches so it is best to take it out of line for recovering a counter a turn. Such a unit will "refuse to charge" because the owning player doesn't want it to get whacked. Keeping a reserve to whack even successfully charging enemy units becomes a key to winning a cavalry engagement. Even a small unit can do wonders. Battles, with these rules, do flow back-and-forth. This is in contrast to many older rule sets where a cavalry unit which has charged several times in a row becomes a super unit, even though the horses should be nearly dead. (People might look up fatigue in horses to understand a lot of this dynamic)

but historically has a Division or Brigade ever refused to charge? </p>

I believe that some Allied cavalry brigades refused to charge against the French cavalry charges in the center at Waterloo. This was after they had already been in action earlier.

I'm sure that a detailed look at any hard fought battle might reveal more, but the one I have the most detail on (and read too many books about) is Waterloo.