"British dragoons - shade of red" Topic

What was the shade of red for uniforms of LD privates ?
Madder red or brighter shade ?

As a general rule, enlisted men's jackets were madder red; officers and senior noncoms (e.g., Sergeants-Major) would have a brighter, almost a fire-engine red color as the enlisted jackets were from the madder root, whereas the officers were made from the shells of ground cochineal beetle shell.

Hope this helps…

Yes, but I've read that all soldiers of Guards wore bright red (correct me if I'm wrong).
According to some, also light dragoons were all uniformed in better quality clothing.

I have a problem with you taking 'Madder Red' as a shade madder. Madder is very dependent on water quality, mordant, ect.. At its best madder can produce a brighter red than almost any other dye at its worst a greyish brown.

Scottish weavers and dyers (who provided a fair bit to the military) at this tine used a number of South American dyes for their work and avoided madder it being unsuitable for their waters.

That being said brighter colours where the money and prestige was is right duller for the run of the mill.

x42

I dont want to discuss the shader of madder here.
I'm talking about two different shades of red, clearly shown on this picture:

My question is – which color was worn by privates of Guards and Light Dragoons ?

JMHO, on the gaming table brighter colors stand out. Most gamers would not notice, know or care which color you use. Thus use whatever looks good to you. Unless your an absolute purist.

Unfortunatelly, I'm an ABSOLUTE purist :-)

link

I believe this unit is now using the Kochan-Phillips madder red wool for enlisted, brighter color for sergeants and officers.

I think it's really mind over madder…

Eric

maciek, I painted my British rank-and-file precisely that shade of dull red, and I get criticism every time I take them out of the box to play with them. "That isn't right…they should be *red* coats." I'm so sick of it that I'm actually repainting the figures, about 50 of them. Feh. I'm telling you, give the people what they want/expect/demand, it's the only way.

zippyfusenet,

Let me add a "same here" to your above post. I had two battalions painted up with a dull red and the command stand with a brighter red. After several comments about the dull red vs the bright red. I just repainted them and made sure all my other battalions were brighter red. lol

I think you get into the whole scale color thing. I think brighter is okay. Of course, I just painted my generals a shade brighter still.

I think for 28mm (and larger) figures, you probably do want to represent the fairly obvious differences in colour between ORs coats and sergeants/officers – there's a reason, over and above economy, why British officers often had a private's coat adapted for them to wear in the field. General officers also wore a frock coat in the field – probably officer quality cloth, but not as "rich" as their full uniform. To answer the original post, the Light Dragoons would not really have worn anything different from the infantry in terms of relative quality for each rank; however, I suspect the Guards had a better colour among the ORs than the men of a Line regiment (note that the traidtional "scarlet" of modern-day Guardsmen's uniforms is very much an 1880s thing)

There are – or rather were, they're all in storage now – contemporary examples of an officer's, a private's, and a drummer's coats in the National Army Museum in London. Whilst I do occasionally have my doubts about Troiani as an AWI artist, the painting shown above is pretty much spot on in terms of the tonal differences. The private's coat (now thought to be that of a household servant of a Guards officer, rather than a genuine OR's garment) was almost a tawny colour; the drummer's (which was genuine) ditto. The officer's coat was almost a pinkish red.

Obviously, internet photos can be misleading in terms of tone, but the 47th Foot in the UK has actually purchased cloth from a Scottish mill than was a contemporary contractor to the British Army and had the original dye recipe. Again, having seen them in the flesh, the red is quite dull from a distance, and has a pinkish tinge close up.

Another point for the uber-accurate types to be aware of, is that uniforms would alter colour according to the temperature and climate. The more severe/longer periods of sunshine in the South would do different things to a red dye than the wetter climates of the North. Also, troops wearing last year's coat would look very different from those who had just had this year's coat delivered and customised by the regimental tailors.

Thanks all, especially Suppercillius Maximus.

Now I will paint two different shades of red on my 10mm figures
and all the guys I wargame with would appreciate the accuracy of my figures, and I'm pretty sure, all will follow me in this matter

While not the red question, my understanding is that Don wants to repaint parts of the picture above. He shows the 43rd in paired button arrangements, and the info that led to that has been proven questionable at best. Not sure if he has made that correction on the original or not yet.

The commander of the 4th Company of the Guards (recreated) said the Guards wore the same colors as the rest of the army. I can't comment on the quality of their clothing.

My redcoats are in the duller brick red color for enlisted, brighter red for NCOs and officers.

I do a dry brush highlight on all my figures after the dark wash dries that lightens things somewhat.

It's very close to my own poor enlisted man's red coat…

People who don't know any better often snicker at the dumb British marching in straight lines with their bright red clothes.
However, they started out as a dull brick red which faded on the weather to a color that blended in well with Fall foliage.

Good point, Winston. In fact, the first thing one notice(d) about the NAM uniforms was that the real "giveaways" in terms of visibility were the white small clothes and the big white "X" formed by the crossbelts (which is why the light infantry were issued red waistcoats and black belts). The "red" of the private's and drummer's coats would be lost very easily against tree trunks and in the shade provided by the tree canopy – probably any time of the year there was foliage, not just fall (although the leaf colour changes helped).

Got to agree with you Super Max. After many years re-enacting, I can state that dark blue stands out in foliage better than red. It's too dark!

For painting figures I use the same red for both officers and OR's. The officers' lack of straps for equipment makes their red stand out better.

Well, officers would have worn a white belt for a sword, perhaps a haversack, and many carried cartridge pouch and bayonet belt as well, so the kind of blended in too.

link

I was staring again at this painting at Mt. Vernon this past Saturday and it is simply an amazing painting.

Well I can't elaborate on dyes used, but we have a couple of museums near me with AWI collections and I am amazed how bright the red is on the uniforms I have seen.

Historygamer
The hat in the portrait caught my attention. It had a small brim. Your link notes that as well. Were most British hats that short brimmed?

My first thought, color aside, that the uniform is similar to a Continental marine like the 28mm figure Old Glory sells.

Re the comment about all soldiers of the Guards wearing bright red coats (like officers). I don't think that this is the case for the Foot Guards.
However, I believe that it is possibly true for the Troops of Horse Guards, whose rank and file were 'private gentlemen' who purchased their place- rather than common soldiers. IIRC there are contemp clothing records which show the supply of 'scarlet' rather than 'red' cloth as standard for those troops.

There was no regulation sized brim for a round hat – it might be left up to the officer commanding, or even the men – though more likely some sort of unit decision. Some round hats may have simply been uncocked hats, some were definitely cut down – as shown in the 1st Foot Guards officer's portrait.

The Continental Marines wore a type of round hat – cocked up on one side. Again, some of these types of hats may have been cocked (cockade side), some note with no cockade.

Regarding uniform quality and the impact that had on color, there are many instances recorded of troops complaining about the dye in their coats running with the first downpour.

Re. size of non-regulation British hats, whether cut down or merely uncocked: surviving orderly books suggest that amendments were regulated at battalion level, with varying success. In the composited flank battalions, in general terms, there was a tension between battalion COs wishing to impose a degree of order on their battalions and the fact that ultimate authority over and responsibility for each component company and its clothing remaining with the parent regiment.