"Sock Puppet Accounts Locked" Topic

Love the Freikorps 15s. Full disclosure. I am not Geoff but I played him in the Hallmark made for TV movie "QRF: The Miniatures Empire."

@MechanicalHorizon: Good words, and bad luck for you.
It's too bad we live in the world where there are so many lies that it's difficult to get people to believe in the truth.

Do you have a sculpting site? Just curious, I'd like to see what you've done.

Plot twist: Geoff owns Hallmark and uses it to promote his miniatures line.

evilcartoonist – Yeah it sucks, but you just have to keep going. I try not to let other people's stupidity interfere with my life.

I have a portfolio at Deviant art if you want to take a look at my sculpts:

link

I preferred the Lifetime original movie:
"Not Without My Sculpts! The QRF Story. A Moment of Truth Love Story in 15mm, Starring Sally Field and Alfred Molina."

I can't remember which one played Geoff, though.

And yes, that's the full title.

Has TMP become a sock puppet for the Jeremy Kyle show ?

Yeah, I thought the guys playing Geoff (it took four to cover the whole range of his character, so they had Shatner, that Rhys-Davies guy, Clive Anderson, and in a few scenes Richard Hammond, shot from low angles to hide his great height) did a fine job, but Sally Field really phoned it in…

Who is jeremy kyle? Is he an LD sock puppet too?

I prefer the classic war drama "a 15mm too far". They were originally going to feature a no-name actor like Sean Connery but switched to Geoff at the last moment.

MechanicalHorizon
Those look pretty good. Don't sell yourself short based on the comments from the interne. Will you be at Enfilade in May?

Starring Sally Field and Alfred Molina

Now THERES a love scene I don't want to watch…

I highly recommend MechanicalHorizon as a sculptor, by the way!

@Ed – I usually don't listen to trolls, but I do understand that cronyism is a part of modern employment. Too often people base decisions on what they heard from their buddies rather than finding out for themselves.

As for Enfilade, I don't really get a chance to go to many conventions right now. I'm working on my own 15mm sci-fi range so when that get's going I'll probably start attending conventions.

Sorry Sargeant Paper it's an British TV show a bit like Jerry Springer.

I just wish people would settle their differences in a civilized manner:

Dear Mr McWong

For the appreciation all of your vehement preaching and having now endured 5 pages of this torture I can open heartedly state that there is not one single thread from an established manufacturer I know or can identify that comes remotely close to your accusation of "putting-the-boot-in"

Maybe my skin is a little thicker than somes, who knows?.

There is obviously controlled venting, from a number of people who have been unfortunate enough to be affected personally or from a business standpoint by the sock-puppet racketeering ring, but hey… welcome to the real world.

You keep demanding the 'perpetrators' be exposed, it may all come out in the wash, it may never. Regardless it's no business of mine and to hazard a guess… it's likely really no business of yours either.

On the same token however, how about rather than ranting on and on about the 'apparent' conspiratorial cabal of manufacturers set up to oppose and persecute one of our own numbers, YOU present some factual evidence to support your claims of this grand conspiracy… but I would urge caution before you go pointing fingers and allocating blame. If you cannot support your claims, or are reluctant to do so, then perhaps exercised silence is the best course of action… yes?

Just some food for thought.

BTW I'm with darthfozzywig on this :)

Anton
Flytrap

What's the longest thread in TMP history?

The Oprah Winfrey visits Oz one, that keeps popping up occasionally, I think.

Not 100% sure about that, but it is certainly in the top 5, or 10.

What's the longest thread in TMP history?

Oh, we're nowhere close to that.

Geoff owns Hallmark and uses it to promote his miniatures line

…bloody hell what have I set myself up for now…

I thought that this people watching a train wreck pic as being quite apropos for this thread

Keith does love you Geoff, he was only kidding.
Yes you can play in our sandbox.

There is green stuff in my sandbox

(I know Keith loves me….

…in a purely platonic, bloke kind of way, of course)

Maybe …..

This sums up the thread nicely.

Here is a little music to go along with it.
YouTube link

That's not greenstuff in your sandbox Geoff, and its not stuff either!

(take your cat to the vet)

:)

Can we have a quick poll ? How many people were thinking of buying a product but were put off by this supposed sock – puppetry?

I'd guess none, which makes a lot of what is being said about losing sales a bit too much like bluster. Come on Gents, if KM has acted like an arse then he's getting suitably pilloried, but no-one has lost any business as far as I can see because of this. If you are losing business to him its because his models and presentation are better. The way to deal with that is to improve your product and your websites.

Dont think it is about sales…

Trapdoor, thats my whole point in this.

"there is not one single thread from an established manufacturer I know or can identify that comes remotely close to your accusation of "putting-the-boot-in" "

No, they asked Bill to look into it, with predictable results. I'm seeing strong evidence of Khurasan sock puppeting – which is wrong I 100% agree, but based on comments made here I'm also reading that this has been a topic of discussion between companies (which would constitute the "evidence" you requested re collusion). Hence my question, what other discussions have been going on between these companies? And after seeing what happens when paper and packaging suppliers get up to in Australia when they have friendly chats I think it's reasonable for a consumer to ask these questions.

Unless of course you don't believe in consumers having the right to ask?

"Regardless it's no business of mine and to hazard a guess… it's likely really no business of yours either."

I so agree, and have said as much to some here on other channels. If it's not the business of a consumer to know, then it shouldn't have been dealt with on a consumer website. I come from the news media and publishing game, where believe you me there are far worse things than sock puppeting. In that industry when this sort of stuff goes down it gets dealt with behind closed doors. Or in a park, like this
youtu.be/KY5Ug1OW5O4

Though that's more broadcast news media than dead tree. Dead tree media tends to let it go down in a pub mostly because we're drunk when it gets to that stage.

And seperately, 15mm sf and moderns gaming is a such a small niche. Sock puppeting screws with it beyond doubt, but even if this is nothing more than hobby operators who've had enough (a justified position) driving wedges like this benefits no one.

I buy from many of you, in many cases I buy a lot. And I plan to keep doing so, so long as I'm confident that I'm not going to be screwed over by friendly chats amongst suppliers. The way this went down, that confidence is being questioned.

If it's not the business of a consumer to know, then it shouldn't have been dealt with on a consumer website

It wasn't, the accounts were simply locked with no fuss… but people insisted on knowing, publicly, what had happened and why…

so long as I'm confident that I'm not going to be screwed over by friendly chats amongst suppliers

Those friendly chats are nothing like as manipulative as you seem to be thinking. But when 'one of your own' appears to be betraying the trust of both the (as you say, small niche) industry and the customers, well I am guessing that stings.

However I am confident that there was no ganging up or collusion, merely a conversation which led to a comparing of notes and a marked similarity of experiences which led to it being looked into further, which in turn generated its own evidence. Bill was not coerced into action by threats from a cooperative of manufacturers, but investigated on his own and took his own action.

However no reason to think that there is any of this was ever intended to screw over customers.

Oh dear. This is all rather sad; more so for being completely unnecessary. I don't think I've ever been encouraged to buy more stuff based on forum comments, or likewise discouraged from buying anything, so it's difficult to see what's to be gained from this sort of behaviour.

::sigh::

This is like the old periodical stories published in the newspapers of the 1800s. Every day I pop in to read the latest and after five pages have not been disappointed.

Can we have a quick poll ? How many people were thinking of buying a product but were put off by this supposed sock – puppetry?

I'm wrestling with that decision now. I buy from the other 15/18mm manufactures so none of them has lost a sale to me, but sock puppeting is such a pernicious tactic to use on small, niche businesses that it seems I'd be rewarding KM for his sock puppetry.

but people insisted on knowing, publicly, what had happened and why…

I think this is perfectly natural, and desirable. The alternative would have been (and was, briefly) frustrated, uninformed partisanship, complete with accusations of stitch-ups and paranoia. That's only bad for the community – and incidentally, by community I'm referring to the hobby community as a whole, not TMP, because this isn't another damn TMP scandal. It isn't "Bill drama" and it isn't about the "Frothers war". This controversy has just had the bad fortune of landing in waters that had been muddied beforehand.

As for somehow handling the whole thing behind closed doors so that we customers would not have had an inkling of any of it… isn't that, you know, conspiratorial?

My point is, there's only bad choices in a situation like this, but at least the present state of affairs (us having been informed and presented with the proof) is the most natural end state. We were going to end up here sooner or later.

As for somehow handling the whole thing behind closed doors so that we customers would not have had an inkling of any of it

was the proper way to handle it. Anything else would have been libel unless Bill looked in to it and found sufficient proof to act and make an announcement.

Actually it has put me off buying anything from Khurasan sadly. I have painted for them in the past and liked their work and 'Jon'. Was hoping to do more for them but not sure I want to get involved with this kind of subterfuge to be honest… the community is too small and life is too short.

Its kinda soured me on the whole 15mm sci fi thing in general, as I was working on a set of rules for the genre based on our Battlegroup engine, and I had wanted to base some army lists on their ranges.

Dunno why but the whole thing has rather put me off the idea and 15mm sci fi in general. Very odd, cant explain it.

Guess scrap that project and move resources to the Cold War one then…

I don't know why one douchebag would put you off the whole idea of 15mm scifi gaming. There are plenty of manufacturers who are not.
Dare I mention one who is far from the graces of the Editor in Chief?

I agree with Rebelyell2006. Bill could have just locked the accounts with no fuss and that would have been that.

We have got to 5 pages because of the "big reveal". It wasn't nessessary.

Cheers,
JohnG

He did lock the account and no fuss

People then asked why?

Falsely made claims as to why

So bill responded. I do not believe you can have it both ways

As for somehow handling the whole thing behind closed doors so that we customers would not have had an inkling of any of it

was the proper way to handle it. Anything else would have been libel unless Bill looked in to it and found sufficient proof to act and make an announcement.

I agree with Rebelyell2006. Bill could have just locked the accounts with no fuss and that would have been that.

I wasn't referring to Bill's actions once he had knowledge of the sock puppetry, but to the actions of "the industry" before that. That is, the notion of the wronged manufacturers somehow taking Khurasan to task in secret, never involving the website wherein the sock puppetry was taking place or allowing the customer base to know about any of it, including the fact that some commenters with whom they've been interacting (Heinz Good Aryan, Porfirio Rubirosa etc) aren't "real people".

Why expose the guy to some nutjob informing his employer about what he may/may not be doing on company time?

Own your own opinions.

I thought it was about time I said it. After all, it's what I usually say (at some point).

By the way, I get around all of this kerfuffle by not saying here anything that I am not then prepared to repeat in church/court/at work etc.

I ensure I keep to that hair-shirt approach by putting my name on it.

John "No dog in this fight" Treadaway

Me too.

John…. oh, no, hang on, Geoff

I presume Mr Treadaway is aware that in English law you can call yourself anything you like?

You don't have to stick to the name on your birth certificate.

You don't have to execute a deed poll or anything like that to use another name.

You just call yourself something you like the sound of.

As long as you aren't doing it for fraudulent reasons you can have as many names as you like.

High horse vacated?

Lord Denning (deceased)

>>Can we have a quick poll ? How many people were thinking of buying a product but were put off by this supposed sock – puppetry?

Not I.

Even if this does turn out to be true (and I still have my doubts) I really don't care too much. I have bought from KM in the past and will do so again in the future. They make a good product at a price I can afford, so that is really all there is to it for me.

The thing is, I learned the skill of separating the art from the artist long ago. I can appreciate a piece of art or consume a product without worrying too much about the behavior and/or beliefs of the originator in all but the most extreme cases. To use a non-gaming related example, I'm a political and social conservative in a country were the media and entertainment industry is by in large left leaning. If I boycotted everything that originated from or featured someone with political views I found objectionable, I would soon find myself unable to turn on the TV (not that would necessarily be a bad thing mind you…) or enjoy the regular movie "date night" with the wife. I apply the same skill to allegations of shenanigans by folks in the wargaming world. I would even do business with folks like Tango or John the OMF if they had a product for sale that I wanted! ;-)

There are limits of course. I would never give any money to someone I knew was going to funnel it to a terrorist or other criminal organization for example. But alleged bad behavior on a web forum falls far short of that line.

Martin

I presume Mr Treadaway is aware that in English law you can call yourself anything you like?

You don't have to stick to the name on your birth certificate.

You don't have to execute a deed poll or anything like that to use another name.

You just call yourself something you like the sound of.

As long as you aren't doing it for fraudulent reasons you can have as many names as you like.

High horse vacated?

Lord Denning (deceased)

There's an old saying: you can make as many laws as you like as long as you don't try and enforce any of them.

I'm – as ever – not talking about the law (in England or anywhere else). Truely, you have no idea what name my mother gave me. I understand that: I'm neither stupid nor baldly informed.

What I try and be, however, is honorable. "John Treadaway" is the name I 'go by': on the web, in the real world and everywhere else.

Consequentially, to preserve something worth more to me than money or the opportunity to talk nonsense from the hidden mask of the web, I use my 'given name' here, there and everywhere to gently remind me that the consequences of not being decent, legal, honest and truthful would be the loss of that thing that I value very much.

That would be my reputation.

Vacate the high horse? Nope. I will gladly ride – and/or flog it – to death.

John "The view's mighty fine from up here" Treadaway

EDIT – one of the things I have discovered on my time on this mud ball is that the 'law' and a person's honor are only very rarely connected in an meaningful sense. On the internet they seem to be connected hardly at all. So I may be foolish trying to conduct myself on line as I would do in the 'real world' but I see nothing wrong with it.

I also see little wrong with drawing my own conclusions about folk who think that the web is some special place where you can write what you like without anything you say biting back at you. There are, I accept, a number of other places where that is true.

Toilet doors spring to mind…

There are, I accept, a number of other places where that is true.

Toilet doors spring to mind…

Thank you for that truly Laugh-Out-Loud moment ;-)

Jed

That was very funny…. and oh, so true!

Spot on JT. My dad drummed two things in to me, two age old sayings, 'treat people as you would like to be treated' and 'if you have now't good to say about someone then keep your gob shut'. I've tried to go by those sound pieces of advice and by and large I have. Shame others don't.

6 pages! Wow!
Interestingly, for me the whole question could have been solved by saying "KM is Larry Dunn." Having been here for the whole previous mess with that particular individual, I can say without a doubt that Bill's actions were reasonable and necessary under the circumstances, and undoubtably founded entirely on deliberate misbehavior by the individual involved. That's called "having a reputation," and one's own actions produce such. No cabal or conspiracy is necessary. It is Mr. Dunn who has chosen to deliberately deceive his customer base and fraudulently disparage others, while at the same time trying to damage the reputations of prominent members of the TMP community by misleading the public into assuming these persons have stated things or hold opinions which they did not say and do not hold. Furthermore, if he is indeed an attorney, he no doubt would know that such behavior is certainly unethical and possibly illegal (libel, I expect).
If I were a customer, mold maker, caster or sculptor, I would seriously reconsider my business dealings with him. Integrity is important; in business and in law, it is essential.

Own your own opinions.

I thought it was about time I said it. After all, it's what I usually say (at some point).

By the way, I get around all of this kerfuffle by not saying here anything that I am not then prepared to repeat in church/court/at work etc.

I ensure I keep to that hair-shirt approach by putting my name on it.

John "No dog in this fight" Treadaway

Seconded, Mr. Treadaway.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net