"Senegalese Tirailleurs Pre-Order " Topic

Warlord Games now accepts pre-orders for the Senegalese Tirailleurs box,

Main page
warlordgames.com

Amicalement
Armand

Hmmm.

The picture of the box art clearly shows Senegalese soldiers armed with the MAS-36 rifle.

That would have been an exceedingly rare event. Production of the MAS-36 started in 1937, and by the start of the war in 1939 there were still many continental formations that had not yet received their new rifles, with the colonial troops far behind that. By the time the French signed their armistice with Germany in June of 1940, the vast majority of colonial troops would still have never received MAS-36s.

The good news is that the pics of the figures themselves clearly show that they are NOT molded with MAS-36 rifles. Rather, they appear to be carrying Lebel M81/93 rifles, although it's hard to say for certain that they aren't M81/93/35 carbines.

The key visual distinguishing features are the front sight and the grenade-launching cup. The MAS-36 rifle had it's front site on the fore-stock, not on the barrel. The barrel was a straight tube projecting from the stock (with the pike bayonet stored beneath it, either blunt side forward for garrison, or pointy-side forward for combat). This is clearly visible on the box art. This was so that newly-designed bullet-trap spigot rifle grenades could slide over the barrel and be fired by all of the rifles, rather than having only one rifle-grenadier per squad equipped with a launching cup and blanks.

The figures clearly carry rifles with fore-sights mounted on the ends of the barrels, and one of them also carries a grenade-launching cup. This identifies them as carrying Lebels, not MAS-36s.

(Of course the new rifle grenades were not available in sufficient quantities when the new rifles were issued, so most infantry formations still retained their one Lebel + cup for designated grenadiers. But that does not change the fact that fore-sights on the barrel are never present on MAS-36s!)

It's nice to see they got the figures right. You would think they could get the box art right too …

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

it's a pity …

loader has sub-machine gun … the SMG pictured is the Mas38 … 1958 of this SMG were produced in june 1940 .

I have never seen a single picture of a senegalese soldier carrying a SMG …

And coming soon are those figs :

a Boys ATR ( a few dozens were issued to some french Recce units and after june 1940 to the vichy airforce infantry in algier )

a 50mm mortar ( never released, due to the lack of ammo )

French infantry is equipped with rifle berthier 07/15 M16 and carabine 1892 m16. the lebel 1886-M93 are no longer distributed as troops of second lines (territoriaux). Spahis regiments and some North Africans infantry (tirailleurs Marocains and Algérien) have Mas36 in 1939.Tirailleurs Sénégalais not had Mas 36 but Berthier 07-15 M16.

Red fez also wrong, and was only worn on parade, it should be a light cream or drab depending upon the colonels orders of the 5 regts

rougeau – I am interested in your information. My readings indicate the following:

Spahis – the Berthier carbine is particularly associated with Spahi regiments, as it was developed in Algeria for cavalry. I have not seen sources indicating that the Spahis were equipped with MAS-36s.

"Second line" troops – In my readings is appears that the Berthier rifles (carbines being the first Berthier, and the longer rifle derived from it coming into service some time later) were widely used to equip French colonial infantry during the pre-WW1 period, including the Senegalese Tirailleurs, and also (with the M16 version) to equip some 1st Line (continental) infantry units in 1918. But in the post-WW1 there seems to have been a move to return to the Lebel, which was preferred by most infantry formations. Perhaps famous in this regard is the Foreign Legion's public demand in 1920 to be re-equipped with the Lebel.

However I freely admit that my readings may be incomplete. If you have better information I would love to know more. I am very interested in sources that could help me better understand the history of French military equipment in the first half of the 20th century.

In either case, I think you will agree with me that the figures in the picture are clearly not equipped with MAS-36s. In looking more closely, I am less sure whether the figures are equipped with Lebels or Berthiers. Visual characteristics that would distinguish Lebels from Berthiers are: the visible metal receiver of the Lebel (the Berthier's wooden stock covered the sides of the receiver and magazine), the flat bottom of the Lebel receiver (the Berthier, with an internal clip beneath the bolt, had a distinctive rounded bulge in front of the trigger guard), and the grenadier's detachable grenade launcher cup (which could not be fitted to the Berthier, only to the Lebel). With those factors in mind what I observe in the pics of the figures are:
a ) A rifle grenade cup. That indicates Lebels.
b ) The receiver is painted in metallic color. That indicates Lebels.
c ) There appears to be a bulge in front of the trigger guard. That indicates Berthiers.

Point b ) may result from the figures being casted with Berthiers, but painted as if they were carrying Lebels.

Point c ) may result from poor interpretation of the pic -- it is rather difficult to see this level of detail, and I don't know if I am interpreting what I see correctly.

So … at least we can clearly see that:
a ) The box art shows them carrying MAS-36s
b ) The figures shown in the picture are not carrying MAS-36s.

The remaining question is whether they ARE, and/or SHOULD BE, carrying Lebels or Berthiers…

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

A submachine gun, MAS 36 rifles, and chechias worn into action in their uncovered bright red parade fashion? ARRRGH!

The Lebel Rifle and a Berthier carbine. Note the differences in receivers:

Here again with the Lebel on top and the Berthier rifle immediately below it:

Legion Etranger wanted their Lebels back IIRC because the dratted Berthiers only held three (3) rounds at a time in their magazines, while the Lebel held eight (8) in their old-fashioned tube magazines.

As to which rifle the Tirailleurs Senegalaise carried in May-june 1940, there were equipment shortages and supply problems, and the standard French Army TO&E called for a number of men in each section (squad) to be armed with carbines in lieu of rifles for that reason, while the ammo carrier for the FM 24/27 was armed only with a Ruby-Star pistol:

These images were what I scared up in a quick Google image search. looks like the three-shot Berthier dominates, as it apparently did during the later years of the First World War in units of Tirailleurs Senegalaise. As colonial Tirailleurs like the US Marines of the same period were at the low end of the supply food chain, they would have gotten the second string weapons the metropolitan army no longer wanted, or have been kept with the low-bullet count magazine versions of the Berthier for much the same reason.

The Lebels would definitely have been issued for the WW1-vintage Viviens-Bessiere (VB) "Tromblon" rifle grenade launcher unless the VB was adapted to the Berthier, as the MAS 36 was simply not AFAIK issued to the Tirailleurs in May-June 1940:

link

<sigh> I suppose someone could have had the sculptor contact me for guidance beforehand, but I suppose that might have been too easy…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Mark1
the Mas 36 carbine was issued to the 1st and 2nd Spahis Brigades in 1940 .
the 3drd Spahis brigade ( 2e Régiment de Spahis Algériens et 2e Régiment de Spahis Marocains ) who were still equipped with the berthier carbine ( and retained some 37mm guns too ).

my main source is Thierry Mone, author of a lot of books on the Spahis ( and former commanding officer of a Spahis rgt ) .

nothing is simple

but my main problem with Warlord/BA is that :

Alessio is writing rules as we speak for a Bolt Action theatre selector for late war Free French, to get your Senegalese into action!

… BlackWidowPilot can you contact him ? :o)

Lou,

I suspect that Warlord has about as much interest in hearing from me as stapling their heads to the carpet.

I've been yikkity-yakking on TMP about things French and 1940 since the site launched (I've been on and off the subject since middle school, and even lectured on the subject of the French Army of May-June 1940). I'm not that hard to find, really…

BTW, the 28mm 1940 French infantry made by Crusader Miniatures were done with information provided by *petite moi* to Mark Sims (who did his usual superb job of sculpting – even if he *did* give the FM ammo carriers carbines – Gah!!! Pistols, Mark, PISTOLS!!).

Reviresco's stable of 1/72 scale French AFVs, softskins, and such are the result of my research efforts in supporting the fellow who made the masters – Alan Wolf – and commissioning the manufacturer to put them into production. The same goes for a great many of Reviresco's 1/144 scale aircraft models, and even a 6 inch Model 1877 breachloading deck cannon used on Russian warships(!).

As for the late WW2 Forces Francaises Libres, Senegalese troops would have turned up in North Africa in 1943 fighting the DAK, in Italy, and later in France until the end of the war. Their kit could be quite eclectic as these period photos demonstrate:

link

Oh, and found this article – the gentleman resides just 20 minutes South of our city(!):

link

I do hope he publishes his memoir…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Lou,

got a closer look online of the new Senegalese Tirailleurs. The rifles appear to be five-shot Berthiers. The dead giveaway is the metal box magazine that is protruding below the receiver:

link

Here's a clearer shot of the MAS 36, three-shot Berthiers, and the Lebel together:

And a "family portrait" of the Berthier rifles and carbines:

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Many thanks for the info my friend.

Amicalement
Armand

I did not expect that a set of Senegalese Tirailleurs would raise this much discussion on TMP.

At least it makes for something different from the usual parade of late war Germans. I am left wondering how many of this set Warlord will manage to sell.

I have really enjoyed this thread! Bravo fellow TMPer's! Great information.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Grief,

if you play Early War French in 28mm, these are IMHO a must have. The Tirailleurs Senegalaise by all accounts I've managed to dig up over the past 35 years now fought often and well during the May-June 1940 Campaign, and fought with admirable professional stubbornness and courage during the Commonwealth invasion of Vichy-controlled Syria in 1941.

They soldiered on in the Forces Francaises Libre from its inception until VE Day. These are good, reliable infantry by anyone's standards, and from a modeling standpoint are a bit of added colonial army flavor to the cosmopolitan French Army of WW2.

If Warlord fails to sell many of these sets I will personally lay the blame on the fact that they've been modeled wearing the uncovered chechia (fez) which was only a parade item, and the NCO has been issued an extremely rare SMG that frankly on the evidence was never issued to any colonial troops let alone any Tirailleurs Senegalaise(!).

The NCO should have had a rifle. The inclusion of the rifle grenadier *is* 100% historically accurate. They should have been sculpted wearing their helmets, and the FM 24/27 No. 2 (loader) should have been armed only with a pistol. Three-shot Berthiers rather than the five-shot versions the sculptor chose to produce would have been a safer bet on the evidence, but it is a small issue compared to the frankly glaring mistakes in depiction outlined above.

I'm definitely going to pass on these as a result, and I am still more than keen to see this particular subject done some justice in 28mm.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net