"Is the Wargaming Convention Dying? " Topic

To answer some pints that I made earlier.

One, in regards to games like what Uncle Duke ran, the convention needs those types of games because they appeal, in terms of eye candy, to the new and those visiting. Sure, if you have been gaming for awhile or prefer a certain types of miniatures, then Uncle Duke type games are not for you.

There are good looking games at the HMGS shows, but often they are in out of the way places, meaning the basic traffic of the convention does not flow by them. Now some may ask for this type of arrangement.

When we talk about about convention and the hobby in general, normally we talk about what we like. When it comes to a convention, the organizers need to think about the variety of those attending, and how do you make it a show they feel they have gotten what they paid for? This is one thing that I liked when talking to someone responsible for Adepticon. They work hard to try and give everyone the feeling that received back something of value. As a vendor one year, we were able to pay for table space with product,
which was a good deal to us. The product was then in turn used in either the gift bags handed out to attendees or as prizes.

Cap--
I'm glad to hear Mrs. Cap (Elena? I can't remember…) had a good time. I ran that game three times and it went well each time. Let her know that I asked the author about putting grenades into the game and he already worked up rules for it. I don't know that it will be in the final version of Fireball Apocalypse but her words were indeed heard! 8)=

Jerry

One lingering aspect of this low confidence economy is that so many firms are on the edge of going under. Fear, excess caution, just-in-time inventory schemes seem to be the ruling attitude among the retail community. Make a costly error and there goes your livelihood mate.

I work in Washington DC. Try getting a simple pocket mirror near Capitol Hill. Nope. Out of stock. My wife went to the local McDonald's the other day. Out of Coke. I'll repeat that. Out of Coke. I went to a different location, out of ice cream so no sundaes or shakes. Desktop fan at the nations leading drugstore chain. Sorry sir, we don't carry desktop fans. Honey butter at Einsteins Bagels this morning? We are out. Over a month ago, Jos. A Banks offered three free shirts if you bought a suit. But not for me. Sorry sir, but we can order it for you.

On the hobby side, my local brick and mortars? Really nice folks but chronically understock on everything I'd ever buy. They carry everything once, but once its gone, then they are happy to order it for you, but never to replenish their inventory. I go often with money to burn and there's so little to choose from I can't even get tempted to buy something I don't really need.

And so it was at Cold Wars. I was among the first dozen in the dealer hall on Saturday. Saturday, the day that should generate more sales than any other. Out of stock, sold out, out of stock – but we can order it for you! My shopping list came home with less than a fourth of it fulfilled. I've been to HMGS-E cons for years, I'm not looking for out of print, obscure old stuff. (Ironically my impulse buys happened to be obscure, old, out of print stuff.)

I don't go to retail establishments to place orders, nor to make appointments that coincide with your reordering process, or to make hold arrangements for my convenience. It may be convenient now but that's not the way it used to be. So Cold Wars was mostly a bust for me. If Historicon follows suit I'll suspend attendance for a while. I'm not blaming anyone in particular but these failing inventory strategies are driven by uncertainty about the future. I get it – but I think that's negatively impacting the American convention scene.

I agree somewhat. Some of the dealers did not seem to be all that serious about it this time. Some blamed the weather.
There was one dealer who had about as much stock along as you could fit into a few plastic grocery bags. C'mon now. Where's the racks?

Luckily I went on Friday and got most of the stuff I wanted.

I had a conversation with one dealer that used to attend shows regularly but now only sells through the internet. His primary reason was that a full rack of 1 of every miniature pack he produced would cost nearly $20 USDk (In metal costs) to spin up for a show. Even then he wouldn't be able to fulfill an order of even 2 of the same pack at the show.

If he only brought part of his ranges then the customers would inevitably be looking for the stuff he didn't bring. Plus he had the overhead of renting a truck, hauling everything to the shows, and then paying for hotel and food for his staff.

Given all of that the profit margins were just becoming too thin. So he is now strictly an internet, cast on demand business.

I can't really blame him since this is his best way to make money and support his family.

In that case, wouldn't it make sense to travel with painted or at least black-inked metals of what you produce, that way you can at least show people what your models look and feel like?

Take orders from there and you cut down on having to bring your stock with you. If you offer a shipping deal or a convention deal with that order, I'd imagine people would be willing to place an on-demand order.

~iPaint

I don't fault the dealers.

I fault the gamers.

I've known too many dealers who lard up on figures because the gamers say they want them and will buy lots of them, and when they do this, the gamers buy two packs out of the 200 they ordered and think they've done the guy a favor. The problem is that there's just too much stuff out there to stock with limited prospect of selling any one pack. This goes for brick and mortar or convention sales.

One factor that is present for a LOT of gamers, and I personally know about 30 who have to operate this way, is that conventions offer the prospect of "stealth purchases." The wife will see the receipts or the credit card charges and will scream bloody murder because hubby bought half a dozen of that junk. One guy I know literally saves his lunch money all year so he can buy stuff at the con and then sneak it home, hiding it in the wheel well of his trunk till he can sneak it into the house. He has to go through Hell and High Water to even go to the con.

But there's another factor.

I'm old. I have been gaming for 50 years. I have a pile of unpainted lead that would gag Godzilla. I still buy more, but I know the periods I like and those I don't and there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I'm going to do something else. Civil War is closed, I've got the armies I need for my game system "Magnolia's Mint Juleps N' Gritz" and the maker of the figures is out of business (Windcatcher Graphics) and so I now make my own figures. I have ancients, but again, I have piles in the back room of unpainted lead. WWII- got piles of unpainted plastic and I'm now into making my own stuff. Renaissance Italy and Thirty Years War were completed decades ago. Then there's my main love, Imagi-Nations and the Seven Years War which I still buy a lot of.

But… when I come to the dealers area at the conventions I know them intimately. Most of the dealers don't even change their location. So I can get through the dealers hall in 15 minutes. I know what "this" guy has and I'm not buying anything there, and I know "that" guy has something of interest now and then so I'll skim by. So I can work my way through Art Fosse's (if he's there)Aide De Camp Books, Dennis Shorthouse's "On Military Matters," Lon Weis's "Brigade Games" and Dave Doty's and Rick Massie's "Dayton Painting Consortium." The major money hemorrhaging occurs here, and then it's off to the flea-market to scrounge for old treasures.

One vendor I'd LIKE to buy from but whenever I go there, and he's got a lot in my main area of interest, only has the packets on the table to sell, no reserve stock, and he won't take an order to ship to me because the company he's repping for won't take orders. "You buy what we got or you go scratch." I think he works for the DeBeers company. Needless to say I don't even skim his booth any more. What's the point?

Anyway, my games have units that are 36 figures on one stand, and I buy whole armies at a time, Vendors like that are useless to me. One winds up with an army of samples.

"Given all of that the profit margins were just becoming too thin."

Yet while profit margins grow thin, and retailers bring less wares, HMGS charges premium space for the booth areas. I know they just announced lowered fees for Hcon – about three years too late. This is a desperation move to hopefully bring back dealers who have dropped out. HMGS socked $50 USDk away last year, for a grand total of $290 USDk in the bank – all while their conventions disappear before their eyes. At least someone is making a profit, but at the expense of the goose that laid the golden egg I fear.

Tango01 – I'd like to return to your original premise for a moment with regard to attracting younger members. You stated that –

The wargames convention is one area where there is a need for a rethink as it is probably the best way to reach the younger public, short of going into schools.

The words that struck me was "going into schools". I often think that what is being taught as History in the schools is very different than when you or I were in school. It appears to me that much of what passes for History is more concerned with displaying the past in a negative manner when it comes to recognizing the contributions made by our Fore Fathers, our military, and our individual citizens. I often wonder (I'm old so I can take time to wonder about things) if this has a direct effect on our ability to recruit younger people to the hobby. I would be curious to hear opinions with regard to this construct.

I am sorry but I heard the graying thing for forty year since I was a teenager, perhaps it just is and older man's hobby. As for cons maybe it has to do with nature of UK cons?

Mostly @ Joel but open to all.
I agree with Joel from Merrimack about presentation.
12 years ago when I first attended the HMGS East conventions I marveled at the beautiful craftsmanship and innovation of original game design present at the shows. It inspired me to both create handsome terrain and purchase the supplies needed from attending vendors. I attended Historicon for the next 5 years and at least one of her sister conventions each year. I was lucky, I lived nearby at the time. I now live in the Mid-West so please note this isn't a Host VS. Fredericksburg diatribe. They are both over 1500 miles away and equally obtainable if motivated. Time passed and each year the presentations gradually diminished, the terrain became bland and the only way to tell what battle or time period I was looking at on a flat felt mat was to read the caption beneath an A.A.R. on the TMP.
Instead of reminiscing about the "Glory days of gaming" or entering into unproductive rants online about quality, I set to work and developed an epic presentation and brought it to Historicon two years ago. My thought was "don't gripe, do something to contribute." Our crew as first time presenters won two awards. Prizes were donated to our event by vendors and those vendors received confirmed customers at the show.
I don't see my crew returning to an HMGS east convention. The Organization did nothing wrong, in fact they were as pleasant and accommodating as they could be expected to be stretched as thin as they were. Our 40+ player, 800 SqFt. game ran twice that day; the expense to build, logistically move, and time dedicated to present was astronomical. The only concession that we were given was free admission to the convention. The same thing anyone who drove across town, brought some felt as a table cover and dropped some lichen between his fig's as to not be mistaken as a rogue flea market table. The motivation for excellence isn't there anymore.
There is an illusion in our hobby that the price of admission to a convention is fair compensation for all games brought to the table. This is why almost all games brought to the table today remain games and not amazing events. Those game masters willing to go above and beyond to create patron attracting show pieces should be compensated, sponsored, or rewarded for effort by the vendors and organizations. A little competition for those endowments might entice inspiring constructs.
20 years ago going to a convention opened up the opportunity to see vendors' wares unobtainable at a local hobby retailers, the internet killed that motivation almost faster than the porn industry. That leaves two attractions seeing old comrades and playing games you could never play at home. Surprisingly the latter is dying faster than the first.

I know they just announced lowered fees for Hcon – about three years too late. This is a desperation move to hopefully bring back dealers who have dropped out

About time they are doing something positive.

Like Bowman said, this started with Mattes and his "Move Historicon Now" baloney. Then the "Let's Take it to the Next Level" baloney. We were told the people from the South would far outweigh the people not coming anymore (no disrespect meant to anyone). This didn't happen. So who paid the price?? The dealers.

I don't see my crew returning to an HMGS east convention. The Organization did nothing wrong, in fact they were as pleasant and accommodating as they could be expected to be stretched as thin as they were. Our 40+ player, 800 SqFt. game ran twice that day; the expense to build, logistically move, and time dedicated to present was astronomical. The only concession that we were given was free admission to the convention. The same thing anyone who drove across town, brought some felt as a table cover and dropped some lichen between his fig's as to not be mistaken as a rogue flea market table. The motivation for excellence isn't there anymore.
There is an illusion in our hobby that the price of admission to a convention is fair compensation for all games brought to the table. This is why almost all games brought to the table today remain games and not amazing events. Those game masters willing to go above and beyond to create patron attracting show pieces should be compensated, sponsored, or rewarded for effort by the vendors and organizations. A little competition for those endowments might entice inspiring constructs.

What a selfish thing to say. You want us to support all your hobby enjoyment*, in exchange for possibly getting to play on the end result. Nope. Not going to happen. Making better terrain is not an investment, unless you make a deal with some angel to take it after the con. Con-goers are not and should not be obligated to pay just because you spent more time making your game that much more spectacular. no matter how many man-hours you spend, I get 4-6 hours out of a con game, AT BEST. Sure, I like to see nice tables, but i haven't got and will not get the kind of investment in them that you do.

*If you DIDN'T get any enjoyment out of building and setting out and running or playing your 40-person game, why are you doing this hobby?

TheKing30 – prices were jacked up across the board to finance VFCC and they have only gone up since then for all, not just the dealers.

Sergeant Paper – I don't think wingnut is suggesting handsomely paying GMs, but sometimes you get what you pay for and the effort does not seem appreciated by HMGS other than to throw GMs a bone of free admission. There is a lot they could do to help encourage GMs, but they seem more intent on piling money away like a dragon in a Tolkien novel piling away gold. Money is fine, but if you aren't going to put it back into the hobby, why do you need to clear $50 USDk a year or amass $290 USDk overall, as you watch your conventions slip away in attendance and games?

In the past, HMGS did pay people to host and put on games at their conventions.

But, there is one thing we need to consider, a convention is a cross section of the gaming community, and convention organizers need to understand this and build their convention accordingly.

This means that you are going to get not only a variety of games but also a variety of game masters. And, it may benefit the convention organizers to pay some game masters and put their games in highly visible and heavy traffic areas.

I know of a game store owner who use to play games on his counter by the register. Every game that he played on that counter on a regular basis, was also a game that sold like crazy. His regular customers pointed out that playing the game led to sales, but he always associated it with either it was the hot game at the time or coincidence. This same store owner would also snub historical game masters if he could no longer win that game with those rules. Eventually, his historical customer dropped and they went to the other game store across town, which has large selection of historical miniatures.

Also, wingnut game topped anything Uncle Duke ever did at a convention. Maybe that is why it will now be played at Adepticon.

Oh it's a Magazine.

Well, if anyone would know about things dying, it would be somebody still working at a magazine.

I also believe that the "great and grand" games are a real lure and that the shows ( especially HMGS that is suppose to be educational) should support and reward these games.
I have said publically for years that we should actually have a "GAME MASTER" title that is conferred upon people/groups that have went above and beyond to inspire and show the public a great game and a good time. There would be "rewards" for those that have earned that title and it may just inspire someone to seek the achievement of that title and the rewards that go with it? -- in other words, set a standard. That does not eliminate the person that just wants to come and run a game with a mat. I don't believe the Glossy mags are a lure because they show pictures of average games -- they show us what we like to see and what we can create and have on our gaming tables.
I know Wingnuts game brought a huge increase in Old Glorys sales of just pirate items and I supported him and his efforts.
I can name countless other people who really are "game masters" that should be recognized and rewarded for their efforts -- remember Phil Viverito great siege games with entire city walls? These type of games should be in a special "showcase room" reserved for "game masters".
The dealer hall also looks like a junk hall -- many cry because "the dealers" cannot bring all the inventory – yet we cry for more and more "dealers" to bring more and more flea market type stuff-- many carrying the same product.
As far as HMGS -- they should do what is best for the Hobby and the organization and not a small handful of vocal people.
By the way -- Old Glory has faithfully attend HMGS shows for 25 year -- not missing a one and the sales are as fine as they always were.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Running a showcase game that features your products does drive business to the vendor booth. The logistics are often difficult requiring assitants to either help run the game or the booth while during this time frame. Most of the folks that run these businesses are making extemely thin margins, so we usually rely upon family and close friends to help out, which may or may not be a possiblity. I am not looking to make a fortune at this and have no delusions about quitting my day job. I take vacation to attend conventions.

Over the last few years, I have developed an every-other year approach which seems to work. As Walt mentioned, bringing the same old stuff every year does not work. So I try to have frequent new releases combining this with the aforementioned strategy helps to keep the wares fresh.

Eye candy is essential. One cannot expect to throw down bags of unpainted figures without the vignettes of painted figures and dioramas to draw folks in to the booth. The same goes for your gaming event.

In the end however, if you are not into 10mm ACW, you will not buy from me. That means most of my sales come from the internet. Unless there is a 10mm convention somewhere about which I do not know, this appoach seems to be the only alternative.

I think the convention is a social event as much as it is a commercial one. Therefore, they will continue to draw good crowds.

Bill Moreno
crackerlineminis.com

I stand corrected. I still don't see why I should carry (as a con attendee) the cost of a big showpiece, but I can see the point in asking for more from the con organizers if the presentation is a big attention-bringer that boosts the con by its luster.

Well, would you rather have the money go to the cons right now, or into their $290 USD bank account? Which makes more sense? Or put another way, you can "carry" costs of the con (which in part, you are already doing), or you can see the difference spent down the road likely on some hair brained way to spend HMGS money on a pet project.

I have always been a dissenter when it came to these huge over the top games.

At one convention two very good friends came over gushing about "Duke's" big game,-- how wonder-fantastic-supercalagragilisticexpialadocious it was.

It was a huge game set on a "U" table in the Lobby and it was some sort of game from Middle Earth. I think it was the one with the Volcano.

Anyway I said

ME:"So it was a great game eh? Really liked it."

THEM: "Oh was AWESOME! It was FANTASTIK! There were thousands and thousands of troops….

Me: So how long did it last?

THEM: "Wow we played seven hours!"

Me: "Ok that shounds great? How many troops were you commanding?"

Them: "Oh about 72, most people had 36, but we were sort of togetther."

Me: That's cool. Really nice, Tell me what happened.

Them: Well, we were at the edge of the table, (the table was the width of one normal Cafeteria table.) Then we moved forward a move about a third of the way across and that brought us into archery range and since we were Elves we got to fire at them with our bows.

Me: "Wunnerfull wunnerfull -- you fired once?_"

Them: "Yes."

Me: "And then?"

Them: "Well in the next move we charged forward into the Orcs and routed them from their defensive position in two turns of melee!?"

ME: "So let me get this straight. You played 7 hours to move 36 troops each 24" across a table top in two moves, fired once, and melee'd twice?

THEM: "ummm er… yeah…"

ME: "Well as long as you had fun."

THEM:"It doesn't sound much fun when you put it that way."

Me: Yes, --- Sad,tiz.

Sounds like a very odd game??????? Also, A very attractive game does not mean big??? Professional does not mean bad????
regards
Russ Dunaway

SGT. Paper,
Not even close to my point. I will clarify. The idea is to have Organizations and Manufactures assist the games that create buzz in the hobby, promote attendance at cons, and inspire people to build better games for themselves. These games then attract people to the cons & hobby as a whole. This could be achieved easily by prize competitions for hotel Compensation, fuel reimbursement, or general sponsorship. Asking "us" to support "my" hobby was not in my text. Creating incentive to improve "our" hobby's presentation for "our" conventions' survival is the point. Incentive to make a better table is not an obligation to pay any more than you're asked or put any more effort into your game's construction than you feel necessary, it rewards anyone's effort that strives beyond a free ticket to the show.
One point we will have to disagree on, "Making better terrain is not an investment,". Terrain is the only thing that sets miniature war gaming apart from board gaming. Not investing in it diminishes the hobby to collecting toy soldiers and rolling dice.
Thank you for your counterpoints. It gave me the opportunity to reexamine my statement for clarity.
Joel,
My intention was not to out due Duke Siegfried, his legacy echos eternally in our forums and rightly earned. My intent was to inspire other people to build games that were as magnificent as his. We all have the ability to do this, a beautifully detail in 2ft by 2ft board trumps a gymnasium of 2 dimensional green tarps any day. Ascetics attracts new people to the hobby Duke understood this I think.
Adepticon approached me to bring the Pirate game to their venue. They are not paying me to run the two games we are scheduled to perform but they are being most generous in reimbursing logistics. I don't expect, as was pointed out by History Gamer to be paid for my hobby, but if recouping losses for fuel and lodging to entertain a convention's patrons and promote Historical war gaming is "Selfish"? Well then…. Adepticon's offer is encouraging as they are doing their best to expand the appeal of historical war gaming, inside of their majority GW demographic. I see wisdom in this because as time goes on GW players tend to migrate to Historical's and the convention will retain attendance for generations.
Russ,
Agreed. But the problem becomes who governs that list? Popular vote? Manufacturers? HMGS?
I personally am not bagging on HMGS at all. They treated us fair at Historicon and made room for our really awkward sized game. Amusing to us, it became a centerpiece that year people used as a navigational landmark in the game hall, "Yea look for the Noisy people dressed as pirates" or "You can't miss us; look for the Jolly Roger then turn right." Good times.
We all need to remember that HMGS Is a group of people elected by its members to represent the gaming interests in their electoral body. I'm no longer a member so I can't and will not criticize them. I no longer have a chapter in my area so my membership isn't beneficial to either party. That said, the diminishing convention population is a problem that transcends the industry as a whole not just HMGS east….west….north….up…down… All conventions. Just like the brick and mortar store, evolution is better than extinction.

Wingnut, you are an extension of what Uncle Duke started, you took his idea to the next level, which really honors his style of convention gaming.

OSchmidt, you may not like over the top gaming, but remember your friends did like the game. I have talked to gamers that have played in similar type games in the area that I live, many enjoyed the game and the day as it was more than just moving figures.

Basically folks, we are people that in every aspect of our lives try to improve or take that next step. Most of us are not driving the same car we had as a young adult. We buy a house, we make improvements. Why can't we expect the same of those that run a convention?

I am sure that there are great looking games out there that are wonderful works of art, and what may be holding them back from coming to the cons may be the cost of bring such an event to the show. Compensating these people something more than just free admittance to the Con could bring up the level of convention, as well as a lot of the other games.

Regardless of what you think of uncle duke's games, they were always hard to get into and always drew a crowd.

As far as HMGS -- they should do what is best for the Hobby and the organization and not a small handful of vocal people

That's a loaded statement, Russ. Nixon spoke of the "silent majority" and I firmly believe it exists. I've done retail for many years on many different levels. Here is what I've learned….

There are only a few people that will take the time to complain. These people are potentially your best customers. They tell you what's not right. The numbers are…

4% complain.
96% of customers don't complain
91% will never come back – 1Financial Training services

For every one that complains, 26 remain silent – Lee Resource

Why am I saying all this? Because we talk about the graying of the hobby. We talk about how the hobby is shrinking. What I never hear is was done wrong in the eyes of the HMGS members and what is being done to correct it.

It used to be that there would always be must see games at the HMGS cons. Not so much anymore. Even if I didn't play in them I enjoyed looking at them. They made the cons more special. Used to be Historicon was the show place for such games. Seeing how Hcon has lost 1/3 of its attendance, and many of those show pieces don't make it there anymore – at least to me, Hcon has just become another con.

I remember too when the painting competition was a must see as well. Now, I don't even know if and when it takes place. That too has also disappeared.

HMGS has also (in my opinion), lost its way in focusing on historical military games. My interest, and the focus of why HMGS was founded. I don't see how the zombie creep has brought any new gamers. If it has, it has also seen the drop out of attendance of many of the military historical gamers, as HMGS attendance remains flat to falling. HMGS does virtually nothing to encourage military historical games, giving zombies and zouaves the same free admission if they register for the PEL.

I appreciate that the choices for venues appears limited. I appreciate that volunteers are getting harder to come by. But during that time, HMGS was able to amass $29,000.00 USD USD in its bank account on the backs of falling attendees, dealers, and volunteers – not to mention the drop off of show piece games. You tell me what's wrong with this picture?

was able to amass $29,000.00 USD USD USD

Shouldn't that be $290,000.00 USD USD?

Yes. I orginally put $290 USDK, or so I thought. I then corrected it, but apparently didn't.

HMGS has amassed $290,000.00 USD – in case all three of their cons are struck by meteors.

Last year, with declining attendance overall, they made a $50,000.00 USD profit.

I'm not suggeting the org run on a break even model, or anything like that. But with attendance declining, and the venues either aging or not drawing like they hoped in both dealers and attendees – this money seems like it could be put to better use, or they could significantly cut fees for all to see if that increases attendance.

I agree that GM's can and should be essentially self-sufficient – nobody is suggesting that HMGS paint the figures, or build the terrain for the GM's… but having HMGS provide one or two clip lights [Home Depot/Walmart specials] and an extension cable to supplement and improve the lighting at a GM's table, or provide a handcart for a GM to facilitate loading and unloading of kit, seems a small financial investment. Making sure that rooms are securitized [locked] at night would be helpful too.
HMGS probably needs a local self-storage locker for the storage of these GM aids [lights and handcarts], and possibly pay for a couple of day laborers to string the lights and help with loading and unloading, as opposed to relying on volunteer staff. Funds would appear to exist for these investments, without breaking the bank.

They used to have a storage facility, not sure what happened to the carts, but the entire GM support system broke down some years ago, like so many other things.

When I arrived at Cold Wars on Friday, I'd called ahead and asked a friend to meet me at the back door to Distelfink – he met me with an excellent handcart, I thought he told me he'd got it from the help desk, or at least someone from HMGS had provided it. Of course, Hotels typically have carts for movement of luggage – I suspect the Host had one once, but one of the wheels fell off, and the current owners elected to sell it for scrap, rather than spend money to replace or fix it.

I'm not sure how a luggage cart at the Host would work, given they have more steps there than in a Lord of the Rings movie.

When I got to the con to put on my games there were three or four dollys used by the hotel to move stuff around by the back door. I used these to haul in my stuff.

As for the past,

The carts were "forgotten" at the convention one year by a Board of Directors Member who was supposed to lock them up.

The sign for the Help desk was donated and another BOD member who was supposed to pack it up.

"The Help Desk" was NOT an HMGS Idea it was started as a result of a long discussion on a GM list started by Pete Panzeri as a means (ostensibly) to have a forum to gain consensus among the GM's and get ideas from them as to what they liked and would help them AND to largely make the convention better. It was NOT started to pry money or rooms out of HMGS and it was quite lively with a lot of enthusiasm from the gamers. HMGS viewed it pretty much with a warmth as deep as the Sunnis have for the Shiites. Pete wrangled the Help desk out of them, and money for carts, and others, many others donated things and supplies etc., and tried their best to help out. As with all such things it followed the five steps of any project.

1. Initial Enthusiasm
2. Inevitable disillusionment
3. Search for the guilty
4. Punishment of the innocent
5. Rewarding of the uninvolved.

Pete turned it into a political thing and the nay-sayers and carpers took over. People weren't really interested in it as originally conceived (a means to organize GM's to help themselves) and simply wanted another place to carp and nay-say. The Bod were there trying to prevent them from doing anything dangerous by preventing them from doing anything.

I was quite active in the list and group and put in a lot of time and money. Loved it, and loved the idea of the GM's "doing for themselves" rather than depending on HMGS. No one however in the HMGS or the convention directors (except for Walt O'Hara) believed it was anything but a stealth anti-Bod political movement. Eventually the people who were trying to help other GM's (as opposed to helping themselves) got tire and fell away. The help desk then became a chore, eventually got charged with handing out event tickets, and the awards and prizes and efforts they wanted to do were forgotten. The desk itself was forgotten when they took the tickets back into the registration area.

By the way, There IS a storage facility. It has T shirts, computers, catalogs and other stuff, I'm told.

I'm older but no wiser. If anyone wants to gin up another group of GM's to organize themselves to help themselves and make our job easier, then I'll join. but if you're going to go about trying to schnorr freebies from the HMGS, my interest goes way down.

There was one good thing that did come out of it. I met a great bunch of GM's who wanted to do the right thing, Mike Hillsgrove, Andy Turlington, Walt O'Hara, Jim McWee, Rich Low, and Mike Lorenzo, and we kept together and we made new conventions like TriaDCon and "The Weekend" and had a monstrously great time of it. We still do.

Otto

TheKing30 and who it may concern, Then you tell us "what is being done wrong in the eyes of the HMGS members" if "96%" are silent and never complain and yet so many are unhappy? How do we get a consensus then?
If the complaint is "the convention is to far from my house" -- that complaint will apply to someone no matter where the convention is held, so is invalid -- in my eyes anyway.
for the last 25 year OG has faithfully supported HMGS (regardless of the regime)-- in doing so we have put 100s of thousands of $$$ into the organization (approx $8,000 USD -$10,000 a year) Yet I have, on several times been told by BoD members that "most gamers do not care if there are any dealers here" -- I even remember one BOD member running a dollar store ceramic bunnies game while selling tables to countless dealers??? Where is the logic with that in the support of an organization we were elected to promote and serve, dealers included? OG has always stayed out of the politics of HMGS -- appreciates all that is done and will continue to do so --but that does not mean things cannot be done better or different?
If it is not to run shows, educate ,promote ,build , enhance, educate make better the hobby why is it that HMGS should even exist?
by the way, I always thought "the silent majority" thing was Jerry Falwell -- perhaps Nixon used it first?
Regards, Russ Dunaway

Dear Russ

Agreed on all points. Silence does not imply discontent or dissatisfaction.

If a customer doesn't complain about a store but does not return he is dissatisfied.

If a customer doesn't complain about a store but he keeps coming back for repeat business, it may not mean he is ecstatic, but he is NOT dissatisfied.

By the vast numbers who come to the HMGS conventions every year, year after year, I take it by their own critics words that they are VERY satisfied.

As for the Bod member telling you "Yet I have, on several times been told by BoD members that "most gamers do not care if there are any dealers here" don't feel bad. They told us GM's that "most gamers don't care about your games they come here for the dealers, and you're just something to kill time with.

So if both statements are true I guess then the gamers come to give the Bod Members a convention and free rooms.

My goodness I never saw such uproarious indifference and uncaring than at the Games Saturday night.

Of course that was all in the past, things are much better now under the present administration.

Otto

Otto, Contrary to what some has said about me = "he doesn't want the competition" -- some of my concern is the actual loss of competition !!!!!! Does it not concern anyone that we do not see companies like Wargames Foundry, Warlords, 19th century,redoubt,etc any longer? Those operations bring people in -- "people in" is good for everyone. I think this could be one of the main reasons for the fall off not even mentioned. My greatest sales numbers for these shows was when Foundry and OG was slugging it out some years back. Same thing with the showcase games. What a lot of fun !!!
I certainly am not suggesting we run an operation where we willy nilly give things away -- (I'm Scott/German for Gods sake) ---- But I think there should be a natural built in program that rewards real true genuine effort and success.
I talk to 100's and 100"s of these gamers at these shows including little wars and they seem satisfied with the shows -- the amount of people that take the time to show up at the meetings is an indication of that = "never stir the mob" (Napoleon)
regards
Russ Dunaway

Dear Russ

I don't see "the competition." Dealers are dealers it is true, but if you go through the booths a Cold Wars and actually LOOK at what they have there's not a lot of overlap. Yeah two or three booksellers but each of them is subtly different from the other and they're not all selling the same kind of books. You have Old Glory but there's not many in the same field. There's a few painting services, and Dayton Painting Consortium, and a few others that sell similar things, but it's not like you have five guys selling exactly the same thing.

Yes, there are many missing faces that used to be there tht are missed. Hichcliffe for one with his wonderful variety of wagons and guns, and several others besides, but I never saw, even in it's heyday a real head on head competition between many companies.

But when you're getting down to "But I think there should be a natural built in program that rewards real true genuine effort and success." It's all well and good and few people would say that's a bad thing. but your words "natural," "built in" are puzzling and what exactly is genuine effort and success." that we wish to reward. These are not so obvious as it might seem. Let me give you an example. For years when HMGS put out its convention reports in it's own newsletter, the same people would be mentioned time and time again till someone reading the blurbs would imagine there were only four or five attendees at the convention doing something. For years people put on games with No recognition or mention whatsoever. But how do you do that.

"The Weekend" does not have PEL or a convention booklet. Instead we put a lot of effort into our "After-Action Reports, Keepsake Booklets" which are 48 full color pages giving a battle report of each and every game that we played along with synopsis of events and happenings that are not strictly games, (like the munchies table, the painting competitions, the Wives field trips, kickoff dinners, and contributors) because we feel this is at least a memento of what we did , remembers the efforts of the GM and we stick in articles and humorous stories from Saxe N'Violets.

That's nice but we have usually only 30 or 40 games to cover, and that's doable. Can't do that at a huge convention like the HMGS ones. But even at our little 80 person con it's a stupendous effort to get the GM's to write down the gamers who played, and give a synopsis of the action. Some of them I'm chasing for weeks after the event to get a story.

And when you're not gong to do EVERYONE, then what is "genuine effort and success." Who's going to run around and inspect every game for "genuine effort and success" or every dealer, or every project. That would require probably 10% of the attendees doing nothing but judging. Pete tried it, it failed.

It's wonderful to SAY it but how are you going to do it?

You'll have hundreds of people offering their august opinion that it SHOULD be done, hundreds more quite willing to tell you what you ought to do and how, but no one saying "I will do this and take it on. They expect the giant ants to do it-- you know "them." "they," someone else, "anyone else," but not them.

Otto

Whatever hair I have left is gray going white. I have called myself a wargamer since 1976. That's about as long as your average full career working for argument's sake. We sometimes get a snow or ice storm around Cold Wars over the past several years and even before. For some strange reason I seem to make those cons. I love the wargaming hobby, the miniatures, the books and rules. I just don't play much anymore. I seem to shop and talk. I had a great time talking with people at this Cold Wars. So it was a success for me. I hardly ever stay at the Host.
Someone said how do we pack them in at Fredericksburg? It's summer. It's right off an interstate and in the middle of a major shopping center. And it's Civil War Nirvana for battlefields. It's major problem is not enough on site hotels and the parking makes moving stuff difficult in and out of cars. I guess minor niggles for the able bodied but us old hands have a harder time nowadays.
Someone mentioned moving HCON back to the Host. Good luck with that. Please remember us southern boys have driven 3 hours north to Lancaster for as many years as the cons have existed. I know it's farther for many of you and that can be tough on the wallet. I think we need to check numbers by regions or states in the east and try to find something more suitable, but it probably won't be much less expensive in certain areas. We should not be rushed into doing this. The last time we had that problem it was not pretty. We should also not be lured by what seems to be greener grass.
I also won't be complaining too much about moving cons. I'll either go or stay home. But I would like to see wargaming continue as we have known it and been enjoying it like we and our founders have done. You people are some of the best friends I've ever had.

I've been attending major conventions, regularly, since 1982. I attend an HMGS convention at least twice a year. One of the highlights for me was the dealer room. Getting on line to be the first to get in the vendors area was a treat.

That is no longer the case, partly do to less available spending money, as well as a lack of vendors selling what I buy, which, in my case is ancients, 15mm in particular.

Years ago, there were at least 6 different vendors selling this range of figures and I would bring a list of how many armies I was going to field!!

That is no longer possible, as many of the figures manufacturers are not represented at the convention at all?

So here, we bring money and end up having to order on line anyway. Everyone has stated the obvious reasons for this, but in the end, it's an unfortunate situation!

We have all communicated to certain vendors and asked why they're not at the Con and it's simply economics.

Why doesn't HMGS consider reducing the cost to the vendor, significantly!!! This will at least make vendors contemplate attending.

Along with vendors having major discounts, or, "Show Specials", that will make gamers want to purchase.

To me, this would be a win – win situation.

But what do I know!

As with most things like this, there is a lot of exaggeration to suggest that conventions are "dying." There are some headwinds though, some uncontrollable, others self-inflicted.

First, the Internet has changed the dealer dynamic. I remember many years ago the feeling that if I didn't buy something at the con, it would be the next con before I had another chance. That wasn't entirely accurate (mail order existed before conventions), but nevertheless it felt true to me, and I bought a lot more at the conventions. Lines were smaller then too, and you could usually get what you were looking for. I understand dealers can't bring everything with them, but I would say that the lack of complete product lines is the single most annoying aspect now for a shopper.

Second, the entire Baltimore debacle, ending in the move to Fredericksburg created a lot of bad feeling, and it very badly damaged Historicon attendance levels. But more importantly, I think the whole sorry episode did a lot of structural damage to the organization and how it is perceived. I lot of the earlier warm fuzziness is gone, and understandably so.

Charges for dealers and attendees were jacked up to recoup the higher costs at Fredericksburg and to recoup the money that had been recklessly squandered. But increased costs reduce attendance, of both gamers and dealers. There are dealers I used to patronize that aren't there anymore. How much of this is because of higher costs?

And even gamers stay home because of cost. It is the simplest of economics…when you increase the cost of something, fewer people will buy it.

HMGS' warchest is large enough. They should be striving to reduce costs, to lower attendance and dealer fees. The conventions are the ONLY valuable thing the organization does, and it should be focusing resources on that.

Also, and I know I'll probably get crap for saying this, but HMGS needs to get their BS together on things like registration. Seriously? I've never seen anything as consistently slow and backed up as that line. And it never changes, never improves. Every convention it is the same. Could you imagine putting up with something like that every time you go to your favorite restaurant or to a store?

I still go to all three cons pretty consistently, but I see people I know who have dropped out or only go to one once in a while. I know a whole bunch of people who are angry and won't go to F'burg. You can't do things, move conventions, jack up costs, and expect people not to react.

There was a very unpleasant debate a while back about GMs getting free admission. That's when they made it so only members could get free admission. I'm sorry, but to me that came off as money-grubbing and obnoxious. I wouldn't drag all my crap to a convention, set up a game, run it, and tear it down, for $20 USD or $30 USD, notwithstanding that I don't think I've ever spent less than $30 USD out of pocket to set up the game. That was a really nice attitude when HMGS was basically acting like its GMs were freeloaders trying to mooch off the organization. If you see fewer nice games now, maybe it's because people don't like being crapped on for making an effort to do something positive for the convention.

Behaviors matter and actions have consequences. If our conventions have become smaller and weaker, look to those who have run them and made the decisions. Because a lot of those decisions have been extremely misguided.

HMGS has indeed announced that Dealer costs will be reduced at Historicon, so that at least is being implemented. They certainly need to deal with the registration because that blows big chunks. There is one simple way to avoid the registration blues, though-- PRE-REGISTER. I have never waited more than a minute when I am pre-registered or am a GM (as I often am).

Wow. I seriously enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks to Tango01 for raising the issue and to Gary for the article. I must admit I took some of this discussion personally being that for the first time in my life I do indeed have a beard and there is Gray in it. There are some great insights and ideas in this thread. I guess I would like to make a few points. Gaming conventions as a whole are booming business. Both Origins and GENCON have over a decade of strong growth. I play all kinds of games. I love going to those conventions as much as I love attending the HMGS East conventions. But they are a very different experience. They have a much more polished and professional current associated with them. When I attend them I feel like I am attending a professional trade show rather than a hobby convention. Yet they are hobby conventions and are a real blast to attend. I get so much gaming in and have such an incredible buzz about gaming when I leave those conventions that I usually ride that high for several months. If you have never attended one of these big cons you are truly missing out. They are wonders to behold. Here is a quote about GENCON 2014

"For the fourth consecutive year, Gen Con grew by more than 10%. This year, reaching more than 14% year-over-year growth with a weekend turnstile attendance of 184,699 and unique attendance of 56,614. This number surpasses 2013's previous record of 49,530 unique attendees. Since 2009, Gen Con's annual attendance has more than doubled."

Before you let those numbers scare you away. I had sooooooo much fun. I hardly noticed that there were 184k attending. 184,000!!!!! I spent 3 solid days of gaming and I spent a whole entire day in the dealer hall and even while in the dealer hall I probably played 5 or 6 demos. Games, games and more games!

The Indianapolis convention center was awesome. The registrations was smooth and efficient, the program slick and clear, and did I mention the games.

This is my hobby. I love it. I want it to grow. I want the manufacturers and game designers to flourish and thrive. I want the hobbyists to enjoy something they have devoted their time and effort into and also love. I very much enjoy the three main HMGS conventions and have tried to make every single one for the last several years. I am not a complainer. I try and help. People asked me to take something over and I am there helping. However, historical miniature gaming has a very different atmosphere than GENCON and Origins. The HMGS conventions feel like a local arts and craft show as compared to these other professional trade shows. I want what goes on at future HMGS cons to be big business and not a small hobby. Perhaps I am dreaming. But back in early 1980s when I started playing D&D and was also first introduced to WRG ancients and first attended Origins, I never imagined that one part of the hobby would grow to such magnificent proportions and the other not. I think we need to,look at the strategic approach that the runner of GENCOn and Origins took and compare it to what we are doing for historical gaming.

Nice post keegantdad, The problem/difference between the shows you mentioned and HMGS is the first is privately owned and HMGS is a Democracy (supposedly).
To many times a Democracy is divided between people that "want it the way is was and will never be again" and the people who can "see what it can be and could become". Big is bad and professional is costly?
Manufacturers that are 35+ years old with no new releases in decades will attract only the first of these. The second group will seek the new and innovated.
regards
Russ Dunaway

With an industrial base that consists largely of part-time, cottage industry and a potential participant base that is an order of magnitude smaller (I'm being generous here . . . it's probably more like two orders of magnitude smaller) conventions that are built primarily around historical wargaming are never going to be like the big multi-genre cons.

Attempting to diversify in order to appeal to a broader audience has not made the HMGS conventions better, only less focused, though it may have saved them from more drastic declines than they have already experienced. I'm not sure making them slick and professional would make them better, either, even if the revenue was there to support such a move. That's what the "Next Level"ers thought would constitute "success"; quite a few historical wargamers seem unable to get comfortable with the fact that their niche-within-a-niche hobby is never going to appeal to the general public.

Perhaps a better measure of their success would be how well they could focus on the unique things that they have to offer, and learn how to do them better than they do now.

> I hardly noticed that there were 184k attending. 184,000!!!!!

Not to split hairs but there were 56,000 people attending not 184,000. The former number is how many unique attendees there were. Still a huge number. And I agree about the convention being fantastic. I go for the dealer hall and the auction.

"people who can "see what it can be and could become". "

The only problem with this comparison is a LOT of the people in the above category like to act like they are forward-thinking, but they don't want to be troubled to actually pay attention and learn what they need to do to move forward.

I'm all for advancing things as far as they can go, but not just squandering resources so people feel like they are accomplishing something when they are only damaging what already exists.

The whole Baltimore debacle was a perfect example. For all the damage done and money wasted, did the BOD ever get a meeting consultant or planner to educate them on the realities of working in a major convention center? No. That's a buzzkill. Much more fun to write checks and plunge mindlessly forward. You get to feel like a big shot and call everyone else a reactionary, at least until everything falls apart.

In fairness, HMGS can't even manage to get the registration line to function at a reasonable standard. If there is to be growth in the conventions, then HMGS is going to have to learn a lot, not just waste money.

It is amazing how many different points of view are on this issue. Of course there are so many variants to consider. Look hos long the initial post was.
What is the definition of a convention? Even that varies between people.
Short answer is no. the convention will not die.
Long answer is that conventions are changing and new options are added in.
Are Game Days regarded as a convention? Those are new events that a few consider a convention but others do not.

Thanks everyone. Just a quick follow up on a few of my earlier comments.

Yes I understand the difference between the numbers. It's amazing no matter how you parse it.

I understand there are many difference between GENCON/Origins and a HMGS con. My main point was that back in 1980 both D&D and Historical miniatures were back-water hobbies that I think had equal appeal power. One took off and the other didn't. I am of course trying to give all of us a vision for what might be possible. I believe it is

I am fairly sure that much of the slickness of these larger conventions is not paid for by the convention organizers nor by the attendees. I think the success of these larger cons is based on the fact that they have a very good business model. It can't be a secret and I know there are some historical gamers that have actually worked these cons. We need to leverage that business model and apply it to our historical hobby. It can't be done by a volunteer organization alone. It has to be done in partner with the gaming industry and of course those who will attend. Indeed growing HMGS cons will be work. But it will be good work that not only will benefit the players but also the industry as a whole. Of course growing the cons will not please everyone and I am not proposing we would ever be able to grow it as large as those two cons but it seems to me it is in all our best interest to try.

Well, you can only sell so many ice cubes to Eskimos. They either like them or they don't, and marketing only goes so far. Historical military gaming is a niche with a nice British history behind it. You either like it or you don't Nothing says HMGS cons have to be mega cons, or they have to draw any set number of people, and that certain age groups are preferable to others. I think if they stuck to their knitting they would be fine. Unfortunately they have strayed a bit in recent years.

So this is a common refrain – what is the drawback of the 'less focused' cons? Is the fact there are Victorian SciFi, Battlemechs and Zombies driving people away from the Con?

Because it seems like every other cross-genre con is flourishing. Are you really stating that simply having that presence is what is causing an impact to the cons?

If so, is that an issue with the concept, or the membership? Because I see no evidence that having the option to play a different genre is an issue anywhere but a tiny corner of the interwebs. Certainly Origins and Gen Con don't have that problem.