"More WOTR Livery requests" Topic

I am after any info on the nobles on the bottom row, which I haven't found any info on for my WOTR armies.

Can anyone help ?

Sir John Clinton badge- a molet or and a key or
Richard Grey of Powys- only got info re Lord Grey of Ruthin ( standard was red, with golden dragon, black staves and motto on white bands. Edging of standard was red, so livery colour probably red as well)
John Dynham- badge was an ermine- possible livery colours from this? (i.e.black and white)
Ralph, Lord Greystoke had silver ragged staff as badge
Henry Fitzhugh had badges a blue wyvern and a golden " goutte" (a tear drop)

The above is from Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones book on "Standards, badges and Livery colours of the Wars of the Roses"- a really handy little book from Freezywater publications, available through Lance and Longbow Society

Richard Grey of Powys- only got info re Lord Grey of Ruthin

Two completely different people hence the geographical distinction.

Have the FW Book. I have the coat of arms for the bottom row but nothing about livery. Worst case I will put them with a "major" nobles retinue if I can't find anything

Maybe it's just me, but I can't make heads or tails out of most of that info in the above mentioned reference. Is the info about the standards somehow related to the livery colors that each noble may have had?

Coopman, the standards show the livery colours and badges rather than the arms. So while Clifford's principal arms were checked gold and blue with a red fess, his livery was white and his badges included a red wyvern and gold annulets. A standard that's black over red would mean the livery colours are black (worn on the right in livery that's divided vertically) and red. The fringe will also usually be in the livery colours, but not always (eg Clifford's and Oxford's standards both have fringes of red and gold).

Cheers.

Dal.

@ Major B- perfectly well aware that Grey of Ruthin and Grey of Powis are two different people.

@CAG 19 the Powis Greys were Earls of Tankerville, had white lion on red field with white wavy border as arms, but info on standard is rather difficult to find, would probably need to go to the College of Heralds directly. Personally I would just go for red or red/ white- nobody is likely to quibble.

perfectly well aware that Grey of Ruthin and Grey of Powis are two different people.

So why quote information about Ruthin when the OP is asking for Powis?

@ MajorB-Why act like a smart Alec all the time?

I don't see you offering even a hint of help to the OP.

I don't see you offering even a hint of help to the OP.

Sadly, I have no information on the liveries he is asking about. Apart from Trollope and Egremont they are minor characters in the period.

Actually, now that I mention it, I'd be very surprised if Trollope had any livery at all. Trollope was a professional soldier having served in France during the 1420s. He was a commoner, only being knighted in 1461 after the 2nd Battle of St Albans and killed 6 weeks later at Towton.

It is therefore extremely unlikely that he had any retinue of his own.

Egremont OTOH was a Percy, the second son of Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland. Northumberland was killed at 1st St Albans in 1455, and he himself was killed at Northampton in 1460. In the absence of any detailed information about Thomas Percy himself, you could perhaps use the red and black of Northumberland.

What livery would the Calais garrison have worn? If I can't find anything directly for Trollope that is an option

The Calais garrison would have worn the livery of the retinue(s) to which they belonged.

Calais was initially under the control of the Lancastrians, first Buckingham and then Somerset. In 1454 the Duke of York was made Captain of Calais and then Warwick from 1455 – 1458. A brief change of hands ocured in 1459 when Somerset again controlled Calais, but it then returned to the Yorkists under Warwick and then Earl Rivers. In 1483 Baron Dynham was in command.

So you see the "Calais garrison" was not a single body of men but would have varied depending on which lord was Captain of Calais.

Okay, I have a solution for Trollope then, as the 1459 campaign has both Trollope and Warwick returning from Calais so I can use Warwick's livery. I might just use a non liveried standard bearer and leave him just with his arms being flown, the troops being in Warwick's Red

I might just use a non liveried standard bearer and leave him just with his arms being flown,

But surely, he wouldn't have had arms until he was knighted and that wasn't until 1461?

I see Vexillia do some heraldic fkags of various lords and Knights. There is one for Thomas Egremont, but I can't see a standard ( which would give you clues for livery).

PDF link

But surely, he wouldn't have had arms until he was knighted and that wasn't until 1461?

I am assuming he had something as he takes his troops over to the Lancastrians at Ludlow. The thing is I don't know what something is. I could leave it just as a livery flag.

I have the vexillum flags which are great. In fact I use them in preference to the FW ones but only because the colour match on my printer brings them together.

I am assuming he had something as he takes his troops over to the Lancastrians at Ludlow.

Trollope was a professional soldier. It was fairly common that nobles in the WOTR employed individuals with military experience to guide them. Another example is Sir Robert Ogle who aided Warwick at 1st St Albans.

But as a professional soldier and a commoner (remember he was not knighted until 1461) Trollope would not have had a retinue of his own.

So who are the troops at Ludlow? We know that he commanded part of the Yorkist army at Ludlow and that that command would have been made up of retinue troops belonging to the nobles present (Warwick and Salisbury). They were not Trollope's men, only those that he commanded at that particular time.

Similarly, Sir Robert Ogle is recorded as having 600 archers under his command at 1st St Albans. But almost certainly they were not in a retinue belonging to Ogle but were more likely to be the archers of Warwick's retinue and maybe other retinues present.

To summarise, the nobles had retinues, afer all they were the ones that could afford them. The professional soldiers such as Trollope and Ogle provided military expertise to the nobles (and were paid for doing so) but had no troops of their own except those that had been placed under their command at a particular time.

I could leave it just as a livery flag.

Any livery flag would be that of the retinue(s) in the troops under his command.

I have Red for Dynham, white/blue for baron Clinton.

A rule of thumb seems to be that the livery colors are NOT derived from the colors of the coat of arms. :D
Then there are not that much livery colors present (red, blue, white, murrey, tawney, green, black, yellow).
Perhaps this helps to narrow down on some colors and just use them. I had similar problems and thought "If nobody can prove the opposite although he googled half a day, it is okay for me". ;)

Nevertheless I have in my files Blue-White for Fitzhugh (as York) and Blue only for Greystoke.
Please don't ask for the source….

I was discussing this with my regular opponent, its his 'home period', he edited some Freezywater publications.

He says that a lot of the problemsm we have is that we don't know- records were not clear or even kept. What we do know has changed in the last couple of decades. Added to that is the fact it seems they were not consistent at the time: no one is sure now what a (for example) blue and yellow livery looked like, which colour went where.

Colouring all this is the fact the reenactors and wargamers have set certain things in stone, because we demand consistency where there is none.

I think Andy Trollope was 3 white stags on a green field, but don't take my word for it as I'm not the sharpist tool in the box. However LBMS do a trollope banner that has 3 stags on a green field, so thats what I will be going with when I get round to doing mine. Hope this helps, Dave.