"Translating the Russian word PETPAHSHMEHT" Topic

Sorry, don't have Cyrillic on this PC, and cutting and pasting Windows doesn't work for me, so I tried to transliterate as well as I could.

I'm running into this work in the context of field fortifications. I'm not sure if it should be translated as the English, "retrenchment" (a work constructed at the rear of a fortification to provide protection; or the French, "retranchement," which seems to correspond more directly to the English, trench. From the context, it seems like the latter, but it's not clear to me if the word means just a trench, or implies a fieldwork with a trench in front of it.
thanks!
jeff

It certainly looks like an almost 100% transliteration of the French word.. which would not be surprising given how many French words the Russians used and use – (and how few English ones) – including perversely such gems as idiot and nightmare.
I would go with the French trench but it will take me forever to validate that.
C.

That was my thought as well, but it could well be a faux ami.

Russian : ретраншемент
Tranliterated into Latin characters for Engish speakers : retranshement
English : retrenchment
French : retranchement, from retrancher (and it looks like the word migrated from French into English and Russian)

- an interior work that cuts off a part of a fortification from the rest, and to which a garrison may retreat
- in Russian, the meaning does *not* include "an act of cutting down or reduction, particularly of public expenditure or the number of employees" or "the re-statement of a (political) position or opinion without alteration or compromise – or the backing away from a previously proposed compromise", and its use is more-or-less confined to pre-revolution era fortifications
- in all three languages, the retrenchment can take any form (e.g. – trench with or without a built-up work) which fits the intended use

- Sasha

Google translate is your friend (it has a Cyrillic keyboard and also does it's own transliteration and pronunciation)
You are correct. ðåòðàíøåìåíò (transliteration ryetranshyemyent) = retrenchment

Basic word is identical to trench with prefix and suffix modifiers

A few variations for "trench"
noun
òðàíøåÿ(transhyeya)= trench,ditch,sap,fosse,entrenchment
ðîâ (rov) = moat,ditch,trench,dike,dyke,fosse
îêîï (okop) = trench, entrenchment
êàíàâa kanava =ditch,trench,drain,canal,dike,dyke
áîðîçäà (borozda) =furrow,groove,fissure,drill,trench,rig
êîòëîâàí (kotlovan)= trench, ditch, dish, scoop

adjective
òðàíøåéíûé transhyeinii= trench
îêîïíûé okopnii = trench

update – oops no Cyrillic character set support (is this TMP issue or just me?)

Ретраншемент(It's you)

link

(Well, it's sort of you)

Thanks, Sasha…I was hoping it would be more specific. Ah well..

And FPR, yes, that's what I was alluding to earlier w/Cyrillic here. I'm hoping TMP 4.0 will fix it. :)

Apparently the word in Russian is "òðàíøåÿ" (transheya), meaning the trench where soldiers hide from the foes. (You would also use it to describe someone who performs unpleasant and usually manual labour.) There is no specific meaning now to "retranchement" in this context except a notion of falling or cutting back – possibly also confusion of the root.
Best guess is that it is the technical term in French used to describe that specific role of a field fortification and lifted directly from French at the time.
But not apparently a simple trench.

"ryetranshyemyent"

Using Latin "ye" for modern Russian "е" requires a bit more attention.

The usual convention is that you use "ye" for transliteration when the Russian "e" is the beginning of a word, or is preceded by a vowel (or a semi-vowal if the word is foreign and being rendered in Russian), soft-sign ь, or hard-sign ъ, Otherwise just plain Latin "e" for Russian "e" is preferred.

(Actually in some transliteration systems, "ye" is never used for "e", for simplification …. but I, myself, do not prefer this approach.)

There is actually rather a reason for this difference …. Russian "e" is sounded differently in the cases described above, and the "ye" form is closer to the original sound in the listed cases.

There used to be two Russian characters, "e" (mostly used when the sound was "ye" or "yeh") and "ѣ" (used when the sound was short "e" or "eh") – but the bolsheviks purged "ѣ".

So, with a little rolling of the r's, "retranshement" should be a transliteration that causes an English speaker to say the word pretty close to its sound in Russian.

What is a little strange is that the word in Russian ends with a "t" sound. I would have expected it to be a bit more phonetically French. But Russian terminal consonants are quite lightly voiced, which might explain that retention of the terminal "t". This would imply, however, that word entered itno Russian in the 16th or 17th century …. or that it came into Russian from English, not directly from French.

It is considerd a "foreign word" in Russian.

Edit : I see from the link above the use of the word with regard to the siege of Pskov in 1581 …. so it was an early import from French.

- Sasha

Multitran is a better friend than Google.

Here for the English word "trench".
link

Note below 105 military usage examples under "Военный термин" / "Voyennyy termin" / "Military usage"
link

But, a word of warning …. Multitran (and almost all modern Russians) seems to ignore pre-revolutionary spellings and usages.

- Sasha

English clearly needs more words… :-)

Yeah, this is from Ivanov's articles on museum.ru's Project 1812 site--he refers to pexotnii retranshment quite a bit, but again, it's not completely clear to me.

thanks for all the help and info!

While "retranchement" in 17th/18th C. French has a fairly specific meaning as a 'last-ditch' fortification within a fortified work, by Napoleonic times its usage seems to have been looser, so a better translation for it, and possibly the Russian version, may actually be "field works" or "redoubt"?

Ivanov is talking about well-prepared positions, not simple trenches.
Here is one of his iilustrations of an infantry position prepared for two lines of firing infantry.

His vocabulary and syntax seems much like Soviet military engineering writing, although I know nothing of his background.
Example : "двухфасный пехотный ретраншемент" / "dvukfasnyy pekhotnyy retranchement" / infantry position with two facings (shaped like a chevron when viewed from above)

It will be much easier to read if you are looking at the ilustrations as you go along.
link

- Sasha

Yep, I have been. I found his layout of the Raevski Redoubt interesting…that's certainly far more elaborate than anything I've run into before. Credible?

" Credible?"

As far as I know, 100%+ credible.
He even outlines what additional archeological research is necessary to determine points on which he is not sure.

Russians preparing positions, especially for artillery, was really a standard practice. They had a large field engineering corps, a set of excavation tools for about 1/3 of infantrymen and 1/4 of cavalrymen, lots of artisans in the regiments, labor battalions, a second specialized engineering corps for preparing lines of communications and more laborer formations for this purpose, artillery companies with artisans, "pontoon" companies that acted as artisans (other pontoon companies actually did bridging), field laboratory units, a few naval units that could do rigging and boat work (as well as man artillery), militiamen who could also do some work, and likely a few more resources I am forgetting to list.

Anyway … if you don't already have Russian, I really salute you for working through Ivanov's text!
His writing style is a tad "dense".

- Sasha