"Colour of 5th (Northumberland) Foot's Hackle/Plume?" Topic

Bear with me, I have got a question, but first a little history:

As a result of distinguishing itself at the Battle of St. Lucia in 1778, the 5th Northumberland Regiment was given the distinction of wearing a pure white feather plume that they had supposedly plucked from the headgear of fallen French. By 1800, the 5th Foot were the only Regiment to wear the white plume, with all other infantry regiments wearing the usual white over red plume despite it only being officially permitted in 1824. In 1829, with the adoption of a new shako, all regiments wore a white plume, and the 5th Foot wore the Red over White as they do to this day.

My question is: If the Centre Companies wore a white plume, does anybody know if, and by extension what, the Grenadier Company of the 5th Foot wore to distinguish themselves from the other companies?

This is a very complicated regiment, and I doubt two gamers would agree on all proposed details. I hope you get a flurry of comments, and change to doing the 45th! Nice dark green facings, no argument!

The Regiment did not become "fusiliers" until about 1836, so centre company men would not have had "wings." Just shoulder flap in gosling green with white cotton "puff" at the end.

The sergeant sashes were solid crimson – no gosling green center line.

At one point in the Peninsula the drummers wore white coats, lace with touches of gosling green spotted in.

One source says the regimental colour may have been a pale yellow, not gosling green.

Unique St George and the dragon in the centre of the colours.

We can't all agree on what gosling green was!

GdeP

Actually, fusilier regiments wore white plumes…all ranks.

re the 5th; Franklin states that they wore a feather but does not specify a colour. As it listed as a regiment of foot with no special designation, it can be assumed that they were feathered as per regular line regiments.

There are many interpretations of gosling green (if you do a TMP search there are several threads about this) Hamilton Smith plates describe as an olive green or drab green.

Thanks for the prompt responses Garde de Paris and IronDuke. Whilst they don't actually answer my question, they do impart some useful knowledge, so thank you all the same.

@Garde de Paris – No fear of me switching to the 45th – I'm honour bound as a Northumbrian to represent my Regiment :D

I'd be interested as to where you came across the info for the Sergeants Sash and Drummers Coat if you could find it?

@IronDuke – I hate to contradict you, but (as Garde de Paris confirms) the 5th weren't fusiliers yet during the Peninsular War (Only after 1836). Richard Simkin's Uniforms of the British Army – The Infantry Regiments p. 39, gives evidence that they were the only Line regiment to wear a pure white plume in 1800, continuing to 1829 where the plume becomes red over white to distinguish them from the other line regiments who adopted a pure white plume. They still wear the Red over White today as 5th Battalion, The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

@Garde de Paris and IronDuke – I'm not unduly concerned over the specifics of Gosling Green. The 5th Royal Northumberland Fusilier Museum is just down the road from me at the Duke of Northumberland's castle, so I plan to visit sometime soon to see if they have any surviving examples of the 1800-1815 uniforms.

Once again, many thanks for the knowledge – much appreciated. :)

"Our streaming white feathers are plain to be seen
And our facings are called the gosling green"

or something like that. Am I remembering a real rhyme, or merely rambling in my dotage?

We can't all agree on what gosling green was!

It was the polite way of describing what goslings leave behind. In other words, bird colour, a yellowy green, or "vert caca d'oie" in French to this day.

- No wonder they had to make the point in that rhyme! I bet they were called a lot of other things, though probably not to the wearers' faces.

EDIT: Speech police making it difficult to describe the colour accurately, but you get the drift.

The 5th Northumberland Regiment of foot also had white plumes throughout the regiment (though the centre coys kept the normal shoulder strap and tuft) This was a distinction gained from an action at St. Lucia 1778, where the men took the white plumes from the defeated French troops which was enough for the whole regiment to be so equipped and they kept the distinction until they received official approval in 1826.

Scroll down to see a plate of a 5th Foot, drummer in the link below.

TMP link

Paul :)

Hello, Warpig1815:

Back in the '6o's there were two small books, soft cover, printed in England, at least one by Dino Lemonifides (who?). One was on the colours, the other on infantry uniforms from the beginning forward. All my info came from those two books. The colours book also noted that the 5th had a smaller 3rd colour, brought out for some anniversary. It was a mid-green.

Covered the sergeants' sash, drummer white coat, etc.

I packed all my military books away over two years ago, hoping to sell our house here in Texas, and move "home" to southeast Pennsylvania (PA). Our moving van comes tomorrow and Sunday, We settle on Monday, and drive home over a four-day period, using daylight only. My daughter will meet the movers as they put our "stuff" into storage. Within two months, we hope to move into a last home in PA. So no chance to see those books for a while.

GdeP

Good luck with the move GdeP, try and keeping popping in here!

Thanks Garde de Paris, I'll take a look into finding those books. The 3rd Colour is the Drummers Colour – I can't remember the story behind it, but I have heard of it. Anyway, thanks for the info and best of luck with the move – hope it's all plain sailing for you.

P.s. Just out of interest, can you remember if the books said anything about pipers in the 5th Foot? Back here in Northumberland we have a unique small pipe – the Northumbrian Pipes (It's less raucous and more melodic than Bagpipes). I kind of wonder if the Regiment had any traditions regarding them. I'm purely speculating, so I guess not.

This site may be of interest to you (and others)

link

Paul :)

Paul :)

nice colours, where did you find them?
The lower one is of what date? It shows a nice gossling green

With the fringes an' all, it looks like the 19 th C. replacement Drummer's Colour, after the original French trophy from Wilhelmsthal was destroyed in a fire.

The second picture is the smaller 'third' colour. The red (R.H.S) material is the pole staff fly sleeve with the tassel laid across the top from right to left.

Paul :)

and what is a third colour??

von Winterfeldt

and what is a third colour??

Read the link in my post that is directly above the one with the flag examples.

Paul :)

Cheers Paul – that's quite the find! :D I've heard of the drummers colour, but never known a great deal about it – much less actually seen a picture of one. The gosling green seems to match late 19th early 20th century century jackets I've seen from the 5th Foot (very similar to the modern Guards Dress Uniform) albeit, I gather it's probably faded a little and may have been slightly more vibrant when first made.

Here is another take on the colour (excuse the green). I have made the wreath smaller. This is because Illustrations continually show the wreath on the Kings and Regimental colours of the period, wrong; they are too big.

Paul :)

P.s. Just out of interest, can you remember if the books said anything about pipers in the 5th Foot? Back here in Northumberland we have a unique small pipe – the Northumbrian Pipes (It's less raucous and more melodic than Bagpipes). I kind of wonder if the Regiment had any traditions regarding them. I'm purely speculating, so I guess not.

I've always understood that the "Northumberland" link was to the Percy family (Earl of Northumberland), rather than the actual county – at least in the early years of such titles.

This post is a little belated, as I have only recently graduated from the C18th forums, however it may be a useful footnote to the earliest discussion.

These are the two earliest written reference to the 5th (Northumberland) Regiment's white cap distinction that I have found. The first is from 1799:

'Additional Memoranda relative to the Fifth, or Northumberland Regiment of Foot.

It was at the memorable defence it made on the Vigie that the 5th obtained its white feathers (now generally worn for ornament by most of the army) for the French, having attacked three times in columns, were as often repulsed, and at last went off, and abandoned the enterprise leaving so many killed and wounded on the ground, that the feathers of their caps were sufficient to accommodate and mark every man who had gallantly defended this little post.'

(Military Library or Journal Vol II 1799-1801, Issue 18, pp. 193-197)

Or as, a year or so later, a marginal note to a War Office document drily put it:

"The 5th Regiment claim the privilege of wearing White Feathers, a distinction gained (it is said) in action."

‘Descriptive View of the Clothing and Appointments of the Infantry' dated 22nd May, 1802, in ‘Infantry Clothing Regulations, 1802', Journal of the Society of Army
Historical Research, vol. XIX, pp. 200–235. Carman, W. Y. (1940),

The first reference indicates that, twenty years after the event, the St Lucia tradition was already well established. The 5th had been depicted wearing a white hat feather in illustrations by both Edward Dayes and Edward Scott circa 1790-92. However, the article also touches on the fact that quite a number of infantry regiments had affected a white hat feather in the period after the AWI. The distinction was not, perhaps, particularly distinct at that date

The second reference indicates a degree of scepticism at Horse Guards regarding the 5th Regiment's claim that their white feather, as distinct from the white feathers adopted by other regiments, merited special consideration following the ordering of the 'Regulation Feather' to accompany the introduction of the infantry cap, or shako, in 1800. It seems that the underlying motivation for this may have been that Lord Percy, Colonel of the 5th from 1768-1784 and subsequently 2nd Duke of Northumberland, maintained that 'his' regiment should be given Fusilier status, possibly dating from the defeat of the Grenadiers de France (et al) at Wilhelmstahl in 1762 (The white feather had become a recognised grenadier/fusilier emblem during the AWI).

Threatened sanctions against colonels who allowed any deviation from the 1800 uniform regulations were severe. However, as we know, the regimental feather of the 5th was tolerated until they succeeded in eliciting Royal approval for their emblem in 1824. It seems that at some, if not all, of the three 'official' Fusilier regiments also wore a non-regulation white feather or tuft at some point during the period. This may have been authorised at some point. I haven't looked into it yet.

The 42nd Royal Highland Regiment and the 28th North Gloucesters, also persisted with or adopted non- regulation cap distinctions. The 42nd may have acquired permission for their 'red feather' directly from the King in 1802 in recognition of their much-lauded contribution to the victory at Alexandria; the ‘Back Number' of the 28th dating from the same action, being in particularly original in form- and only visible from behind- seems to have escaped without comment durig the war. It was not until the 1820s, that the 5th, the 28th and 42nd were all politely challenged and subsequently received official recognition for their regimental cap distinctions.

Of the three, however, only the 5th received Royal approval for the privilege of wearing- "the 'White Feather', which for a long series of years has been worn as a mark of distinction."

This lenient attitude is likely to have reflected the influence of the Duke of York, whose desire for centralised authority over the regiments was balanced by a belief in the value of regimental distinctions, such as these, in maintaining esprit de corps.

It seems that the underlying motivation for this may have been that Lord Percy, Colonel of the 5th from 1768-1784 and subsequently 2nd Duke of Northumberland, maintained that 'his' regiment should be given Fusilier status, possibly dating from the defeat of the Grenadiers de France (et al) at Wilhelmstahl in 1762 (The white feather had become a recognised grenadier/fusilier emblem during the AWI).

On one occasion during the AWI – I think either the King's or Queen's birthday parade, but I can't recall which year – Percy annoyed Howe by having his regiment parade in fur caps. Howe was, at the time, Colonel of the 23rd, whose caps were in storage and could not be worn.

Indeed, SC. It was on New Year's Day 1778 in Philadephia. Percy had returned to England in a huff but his loyal representative, Major George Harris, acting CO, saw to it that the regiment paraded in bearskin caps which Percy had evidently provided, the original trophies having, presumably, worn out.

The story comes, as you may recall, from Mark Urban, author of 'Fusiliers.' Full discussion here on RevList. link

(- have you been able to get back in yet?).

It was General Harris, by then a very senior gentleman, who confirmed the story of collecting the feathers submitted to Horse Guards in 1824.

I find the story of the Fifth regiment's trophy-hunting and persistent efforts to be set apart both fascinating and entertaining- and no reflection on their wholly creditable record. It's rather like a publicity-hungry politician or actor who, annoyingly, happens to be good at their job as well.