"What's your favorite tank gunnery system/rules and why?" Topic

Are you using the rules as written or house rules?
How realistic do you think they are?
Are they based on real test firing results or subjective gamey values?
Do they give historic results?
What die roll modifiers are you using and why?
What are the most accurate and playable ways to represent armor and penetration values?

Wolfhag

Panzer War. I like them.
panzer-war.com

Flames of War, because it is simple and does not make my brain hurt. Almost no charts! If you love charts and looking things up, have a blast. I don't.
And mmost importantly, it FEELS like it works.

Flames of War? Know nothing about the rules but John, I thought you had said you don't like the game. Are you saying that you only like the armor rules?

Flames of War for me too. It's fun.

Fireball Forward. Elegantly simple and it has op fire. Also almost no charts as well.

And oh yes:

Are they based on real test firing results or subjective gamey values?

Real test firing is conducted on a clear day, with no one shooting back, and you usually ask your best crew to do it. So if you base your rules on this, that's just as much a "gamey calue" as anything else.

Jagdpanther for me.

Tigers & Stalins. Very simple, yet elegant system.

Jagdpanzer are my favorite. I've played lots and lots of rules over the years. Those seem to fit the bill best. And there are charts. but only the one for the shooting and the other for the gun doing the shooting and the one for the target. Playing this system for just a short time, I was able to memorize almost all of the more commonly used weapons and vehicles as regards gun and armor values. The main chart was also easy the remember. And it didn't make my head hurt a bit.
My second favorite are the old Tractics rules. Part of why they're my second favorite has to do with their more cumbersome charts and tables.

Real test firing is conducted on a clear day, with no one shooting back, and you usually ask your best crew to do it. So if you base your rules on this, that's just as much a "gamey calue" as anything else.

Oh yes,
And "historic results" are often compared to accounts by only one side so if you base your rules on this its just as gamey as anything else.

John, I thought you had said you don't like the game.

I never said that. I have always said that I play it regularly and enjoyed it. I have always defended it from those who never played it but watched a game from 10 feet away once and sneered.Those omadhauns don't know what they are talking about.

The original table shows note (b) where note (f) is plainly intended

I like the idea that the Tigers (88mm gun) could use US 57mm!

Can you confirm

In the memo this table accompanies, it is claimed that "the U.S. 76mm is ineffective against TIGER
and only effective against PANTHER flanks", but, by an ordnance officer in the USA that "75mm gun
will penetrate Panther tank turret, sides and rear and lower hull to ranges of 2,000 yards. 76mm gun
will penetrate Panther tank at all points except chassis front plate to ranges of 5,000 yards and turret
front at 2,500 yards, hull front nose plate 1,600 yards".

Which is the theory and which is the practice?

Thanks

Those omadhauns don't know what they are talking about.

And now I've learned something.

OK John, my bad. I am going to have to take a second look.

I still like Tractics(duck) and Tank Charts.

Also, Advanced Squad Leader after I strip it down a bit.

All the above I have used in conjunction with a role playing campaign.

Platoon level would be Avalanche Press' Panzergrenadier.

I can be very quick zippin' thru Tractics charts, we played it too much back in the day.

Mine own.

I don't know much, but I like Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer rules for tanks.

Hardware-wise, the German & Russian tanks don't differ much. But the difference in proficiency is more than enough. Russian have really to get up close to get anything done. Shooting at moving vehicle is a real challenge for them. All without special rules.

My favourite tank gunnery rules are something simple, possibly separate hit/kill rolls or possibly combined into a single attack factor. As long as the outcomes are broadly historically consistent.

I played enough Tobruk when I was a teenager to be tired or tracking the hit location of every shot fired, particularly for a Bofors gun…

See Jentz for some useful data re German tank vulnerability to various Allied tank and AT weapons.

B

I like the tank gunnery rules in Panzer Marsch! enough to have considered how to incorporate them in other rule sets, but evidently not well enough to have done anything about it.

PM! uses 6 range sticks (different lengths for different gun sizes) and models the interaction between gun and amour class allowing for weaker penetration at longer ranges. It looks a little clunky because of the range sticks (which you have to make, although this is simply done with a few lengths of dowel and some black or white paint) but is quick to pick up and works surprisingly well.

For me FFOT3 is not only the simplest but also the most accurate.

And I used to work as a scientist on Tank Gun accuracy, including firing trials for Challenger 2.

And yes, I know there's a whole world of difference between firing on a range and firing in combat. FFOT3 is based on actual combat loss rates. It works for me.

I like Fireball Forward's system the best.

And what the heck is "FFOT3"? God I hate unidentified acronyms!!

Fist Full of TOWs 3?

I agree with some chicken, the rules in Panzermarsch are good and allow for non penetration damage,

Tally Ho!

For me FFOT3 is not only the simplest but also the most accurate.

How many other rule systems have you used?

I changed over to Flames of War after 20 years of Spearhead because most people are playing it, it's not as complicated as I originally thought, and it's more realistic if you patch over the "gamey" stuff they put in there to control the tournament players.

As far as House Rules? Regarding the mechanics of shooting: HMGs jam if 2 1's are rolled when shooting, units that fail a save but survive due to bullet-proof cover are pinned, pinned units cannot shoot (except man-handled weapons) & man-handled weapons can't shoot if they move over 3" as they require time to set up or break down. We pin individual stands just like individual tanks will bail-out due to shooting.

I gotta tout Jagdpanzer 2nd Edition for this topic.
And the charts have been streamlined from 1st edition too, as no "To Penetrate" chart is needed now.

I have a problem with D6 systems. 16.6% odds is too thick of a band for the subtleties of ballistics. A D20 gives room for more nuanced odds at 5% increments.

Charts are actually quite useful.

See Squad Leader for instance.

Without charts you need army books with long lists of stats which you must memorize. Charts and matrixs of gun v. tank is one of best ways to have a easy to use "no reference" methods and still get accurate results. (using die other than d6 helps too)

Flames of War actually has one the clunkier methods and produces the absurd result that many tanks are invunerable.

Charts and alterntive dice should be the first think to look for in easy to use but reasonable accurate system.

TomT

> How many other rule systems have you used?

Don't know about the other guy but I've played hundreds and agree with him. Of course our opinions and a dollar will not even buy a cup of coffee any more…

I like Tigers and Stalins immensely, but it only covers a few of the major vehicles. The Battlegroup series is somewhat simplified but works well, easy to pick up and is our club's 'go to' rule set for WWII

How many other rule systems have you used?

I've lost count. Everything from WRG from ~1974 upto FOW.

Rules and boardgames I either own or have played:
Tractics, Contact, Firefly, Challenger, Firefight, Red Star White Star, Arab Israeli Wars, Panzer Grenadier, Assault, Blood and Bridges, Eisenbach Gap, Team Yankee, Panzer/Armor/88, Pattons Best, Blitzkrieg Commander, Cold War Commander, Fire+Fury Battlefront WW2, Great Battles of WW2, Panzer Blitz/Panzer Leader, Panzermarsch, Panzer War, Squad Leader, ASL, Panzer Korps, Combat Commander (Enola), Not Quite Mechanised, ….I forget the rest.

And the FFOT3 tank rules fit on half-a-side of paper and use a single d6. Jobsa.

Ours of course (Maneouver Mroup). Gunnery in a wargame is not exacly analogous to gunnery in the real world.

Obviously it has to account in some way for the balistics of the weapon, rate of fire and basic accuracy. However it has to recognise other issues in presenting and acceptable result.

For balistics it needs to account for crossing rate, in realisty there is no way you are goint to do that s most rules have a movement penalty which accounts for "mostly" unstabilased guns (que the Sherman stabilaistion argument).

It aso has to deal wiht timing of fire. Who gets to shoot first in some cases in a system where its one since then the other this is not always that rational so inaccuracy can be added to even the odds. Rate of turret rotation limits target engagement times so could be reflected in gunnary accuracy.

Armour is again less obvious in some ways. For us we (certainly) dont want to be accounting for angle of strke on every face of the vehical which by definition limits the accuracy of the overall result. depending on the angle the wepon can see up to 1.7 times the through thickness Another example is the ammount of effectiveness additional armour makes. For exanple an 8 mm of extra armour on a 250mm thick glasis will make little difference, 8mm on top of a basic 8mm is a lot and will have a very measurable effect on impact damage with some weapons.

Threfore the gunnery rules have to a laeer or greater extent have to integrate with the other rules to get the overall efect that was intended.

Is it right in MG. Whel what little data we have indicates its not miles away. Like the man said, gunnery test values are thjemselves not directly applicable to actual in the field accuracies.

I like ours as they get the results intended and integrate with the rest of the rules without excessive effort or dice rolling. (we have a pathalogical hate of too many dice). No rules are going to be perfect and it may be that ther are fundamenntal disagrrents with what the answer should be at the top level of rule integration.

Still there are actual ballistic tests and armor tests. The data has numbers unlike such gamey things like 'cohesion' factors or quality factors based on training. Not only are there no physical tests to go by with these, it is purely subjective often reflecting the author's national bias.

My favourite tank gunnery system was devised by a guy at Luton club about 30 years ago. The basics were quite simple charts with penetration at range x compared with armour.

The interesting bit was his penetration results chart. He said he had discussed it with some real tankers. You state if aiming for turret, hull or tracks, then roll a die (I think it was a D10). The result might range from a bounce to brew up, with such things as main or secondary gun out of action, crew casualties or reduced speed in between.

Great fun, but you had to remember damage for each tank, or add little labels.

I enjoy spearhead and flames of war.

How many other rule systems have you used?

About thirty to fifty, or so. All with an eye to selecting the best, I settled on Mein Panzer because it does a very good job with infantry.