"Osprey plumbs new depths? The rise of ‘Germlish’ " Topic

I recently purchased my first Osprey WW2 Campaign title in quite some time, "Kursk – the Northern Front" and found it quite good.

Except that I was first puzzled, then irritated, and finally exasperated by the admixture of German words and even German orthography in Dr. Forczyk's otherwise admirably clear English.

I have dubbed the resulting unholy mix "Germlish".

In the 70 years since 1945, generations of English-speaking popular historians have used an extensive vocabulary for translating foreign military terms.

Everyone from Cornelius Ryan to Alan Clarke, John Keegan (rest in peace, sorely missed), Anthony Beevor and even David Glantz have found English military terminology perfectly appropriate for representing non-English unit names. All of these are more distinguished than the amateur enthusiasts employed by Osprey, and if English is good enough for them, it works for me.

So why, Osprey, why? Why use "Heeresgruppe Mitte" rather than "Army Group Center"? Why "AOK 9" instead of "9th Army"? Why "258.Infanterie-Division" and not "258th Infantry Division" – and just what the hell is that decimal point anyway?

Even less comprehensible is the use of specifically German typography – i.e., the 'eszett' or ‘sharp S' ligature – for the double letters "ss". To native English readers, the eszett can look somewhat like a capital B. If you're a quick reader, you might skim past "GroBdeutschsland" and General "CloBner" and think they're just the latest examples of Osprey typographical errors.

Hey, Osprey, here's a heads-up: the eszett is a specialized diacritic ligature that is not part the English alphabet. The Germans themselves don't always agree about correct usage (particularly since their spelling reform effort in the mid-1990's) and the Swiss have dumped it altogether. But at least German is their native language and they have a perfect right to employ it how they like. In English, it's simply spelled "ss".

None of which is enough to deter Osprey's notoriously flaky "editorial" staff (if, in fact, they actually exist at all).

Thankfully – although with predictable inconsistency – Osprey did not attempt potentially jaw-breaking transliterations of Russian proper names in Dr. Forczyk's book. So we find "Rodin's 2nd Tank Army" and "17th Guards Rifle Corps" opposing (in admirably plain English) the egregiously untranslated "XXII Armeekorps" and "78-decimal point-Sturm Division".

And other kinds of proper names are (so far) inviolate – e.g., place names (Russia remains Russia, not Russland or Rossiye , and Moscow is Moscow, not Moskva).

Dr. Forczyk's book itself offers no explanation for the adoption of Germlish in place of English. So the question remains – what should we expect next from Osprey? Perhaps Samurai names rendered only in Kanji?

If I were Dr. Forczyk, I'd be mightily ticked off.

No … sorry … I wouldn't have a problem with any of that … least of all the double 's' (and I hope they use umlauts, otherwise how are you to know how to pronounce the words?)

Phil
P.B.Eye-Candy

The decimal point makes the number ordinal, thus 258. would indeed be 258th.

That kind of writing is very common nowadays, and perfectly understandable. I actually prefer when the correct German terms are shown.

You know, I think I got out of bed on the wrong side and it's been one of those days. So I apologize unreservedly for being such a Mr. Crankypants.

Thanks to my fellow TMPers for talking me down off the ledge. Life's too short for such things and next time I'll take a deep breath before I let fly.

It's way past time to open a beer, so I expect to feel all better very shortly.

I would much rather see the proper German (or Japanese) names used instead of an English translation. This prevents such mangled terms like Hunting Panther instead of Jagdpanther or Group Leader instead of Gruppenführer. Even worse, I have also seen the Hiryu, Soryu and Akagi (as written in Romanji instead of Kanji) called the Flying Dragon, Green Dragon and Red Castle.

Attaboy!

I do like the term "Germlish".

Or. maybe … DIE GERMLISCHE!

What is odd is that as noted, Germans are named in German, but Russians are named in English. Consistency should be used.

Sounds like a variant of the dubbing versus subtitles argument to me. Most purists prefer subtitles ;-)

"but Russians are named in English. Consistency should be used."

Do you mean that the Russians should conform their alphabet to English/Latin version? Or that the English/Latin alphabet should also include Cyrillic script?

I prefer foreign terms for flavour but honestly, for Panzerites, its like using random Japanese words for weeaboos: It's part of affirming their authenticity and how totally Kawaii they are.
(What's the Panzerfetish counterpart to Kawaii? Guderian? As in "That guy is so Guderian, he's memorized the boot size of every field marshall")

If the word "Schützenpoppen" is used in any of those books, they're likely pulling your leg… ;-)

I am reminded of what an old Latin teacher once told me. " The nominative plural of the Latin word 'forum' is 'fora'. The plural of the English word 'forum' is 'forums'.
Using German nuanced usage that only a German speaker in a general audience English book is nothing but know it all pedantry.

Sometimes it's useful to use Germlish to indicate that it's the German 758th Infantry Division you're talking about and not the Russian 758th Infantry Division. I've also seen authors italicise the formation names for one nation for the same reason (e.g. Ian Lyall-Grant always tends to italicise Japanese formation names in his books).

As has been said above: 'Jagdpanther' is FAR better than 'Hunting Panther' and similarly, 'Chasseurs a Cheval' is a better term to use in English than 'Hunters on Horseback'.

Well…to lighten thigs further….how about Franglais…this is one of my favourites (I know not quite the same, but funny nonetheless…):

link

It used to be the standard convention to print foreign words used in an English text in italics. Who knows what they do these days in the age of Internet ignorance. C'est la vie.

Dave,

That link has made my day! :)

Weak with laughter here at comments such as

"Àpres tout, c'était seulement un roll dans le hay. Silly rosbifs. Il étaient flogging un cheval mort."

I have also encountered this phenomenon in the latest Osprey book Waterloo 1815 (2) on Ligny by John Franklin. One soon gets used to it, and the distinction between French and German styles of numbering or nomenclatures, III Corps and III Korps respectively, helps to identify the nationality of units immediately.

What I don't understand, though, is why French regiments are given as '86e Regiment de Ligne' but higher formations as 'the 1st Brigade of the 11th Division', for example, whilst for the Prussians one finds the 26. Infanterie-Regiment of the 6th Brigade…

That Franglais article was priceless.

I haven't seen too much Germlish or Franglais, but I've had quite a bit of exposure to Taglish (Tagalog + English) and a bit of Spanglish.

My favourite bit of Franglais is the alleged 'motto of the French Navy':

"To the water, it is time!"

"A l'eau, c'est l'heure!"

:)

It did make me chuckle in a recent TMP thread, when a French gentleman took the bait "Jemima, I'm not sure that's correct. I served in the French Navy and it was 'Valeur et Discipline'…"

:D