"We Won the War in Afghanistan...And Then Lost It" Topic

"Robert Grenier was the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency's chief of station in Pakistan and Afghanistan on 9/11. In his new book 88 Days to Kandahar, he describes—in lively, clear prose—America's two-month campaign to support Pashtun insurgents fighting to seize southern Afghanistan from the Taliban and, by extension, Al Qaeda.

It's a quick, engaging and illuminating read—and not a little depressing, as Pashtun warlord Hamid Karzai's victory over the politically and tactically inept talibs leads, almost inexorably, to Karzai's own inept rule … and the Taliban's resurgence, which in turn draws the United States into a protracted ground war…"
Full text here
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Amicalement
Armand

No.
We won the war, and then chose to lose it.

Same as pretty much all of them since Two.
-Kle.

Withdraw and claim victory. Yay!

Rudyard Kipling
Arithmetic on the Frontier

A great and glorious thing it is
To learn, for seven years or so,
The Lord knows what of that and this,
Ere reckoned fit to face the foe --
The flying bullet down the Pass,
That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

Three hundred pounds per annum spent
On making brain and body meeter
For all the murderous intent
Comprised in "villanous saltpetre!"
And after -- ask the Yusufzaies
What comes of all our 'ologies.

A scrimmage in a Border Station --
A canter down some dark defile --
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail --
The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's downward blow
Strike hard who cares -- shoot straight who can --
The odds are on the cheaper man.

One sword-knot stolen from the camp
Will pay for all the school expenses
Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
But, being blessed with perfect sight,
Picks off our messmates left and right.

With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem,
The troopships bring us one by one,
At vast expense of time and steam,
To slay Afridis where they run.
The "captives of our bow and spear"
Are cheap, alas! as we are dear.

We may not have won, but we definitely had highest score.

High score and high scorn.

(smile)

Amicalement
Armand

"Shut up! We didn't lose Afghanistan! It was a tie!" – Otto

A bit like saying adolf won WW2 then lost it…

or not enough understanding the place; that Afghan chief who said; you cannot buy an Afghan warlord, only hire him.

How do you define victory in a conflict like Afghanistan? For the insurgents, is it when you get the foreigners to leave, or is it when you overthrow the local government? Or would it be a victory if you persuade the local government to meet you at the negotiating table and make concessions?

For the foreigners, are you winning (or at least not losing)as long as you have boots on the ground? If you're not planning on sticking around forever, when do you get to declare victory?

Did the USA (and later on, ISAF) have any idea of what victory looks like in Afghanistan early on in the conflict? Obviously it's easy to look back and say that it would have been best to help the Northern Alliance overthrow the Taliban, and then walk away. Once you decide to garrison the place, a tidy exit becomes more problematic.

Don't feel bad, ISAF. Genghis Khan, the Colonial British (twice), the Soviet Union, and now ISAF have all failed in Afghanistan. It's an impossible task to win there.

A bit like saying adolf won WW2 then lost it…

Really? The Taliban has marched into DC, flattened our cities, killed millions of our citizens, deposed the government and imposed a new one of their own choice and occupied the US?

Wow, the news pukes are really slacking these days.
-Kle.

LOL !!!! In conflicts since after WWII and maybe even Korea, things morphed and became a little harder to define "Victory Conditions"… That being said at the tactical level, were I lead and commanded. In the Infantry, as long as you were killing the enemy, hopefully in large numbers. You were doing your job. As odd as this may sound, whether it had anything to do with the "victory condition" from high above. There may even be no real defined ways to "win" … But you will do your duty. And kill as many of the "bad guys" as you can. If for no other reason than dead enemy can't kill you or you comrades.

Love the Kipling quote.

What Grenier really means in his book is that *he* won Afghanistan and it's other people's fault that the war was lost (after he left). More self-serving memoirs.

The U.S. won by deposing the Taliban. The installation of a new government was another story. Afghanistan has never been a real nation. It is really a loose confederation of mountain tribes. From time to time the more numerous Pushtan tribes exersise limited control over the others. Trying to make it something else is a mistake.

Agree.

Amicalement
Armand