"Emdrive works again!" Topic

Apparently we're onto something here link
(Rather excited about mention of manned Titan expedition)

Um, maybe. There is still zero evidence that the 'working' drive and the 'null' drive provide different amounts if thrust. In fact the article says that their anticipated 'null' configuration STILL produced 'thrust'. This heavily implied that the apparent thrust is in fact an artifact of the experiment instead of actually being produced by the engine. I still think they are on to nothing.

-Will

Will, I believe you misread the article. The "null" drive you refer to was not part of the EMdrive, but a supposedly crippled Cannae drive invented by an Italian, and used in a different test to compare to a functioning Cannae drive. The EMdrive was not part of that test. The article is reporting on a testing of the EMdrive, and refers to the Cannae test which had perviously been conducted and reported on earlier. From the wording of the article, the Cannae drive test was simply offered as an example of similar research based on a different design, which the article speculates is based on a flawed premise as to the nature of how the system would work, so that the modifications made to supposedly "null" the Cannae drive would not "null" it. (The wording is a bit unclear, so my understanding might be off as well).

So at this stage, what we have is a an EMdrive that still appears to be working after a revised testing environment, in a full vacuum, but that more testing and test modifications remain necessary to eliminate sources that might be producing unintended thrust.

PS: Yes, I admit that I really, really, really want the EMdrive to be the real deal. (And the warp-ring vessel, too). But I also realize that Dr. White is NASA's version of Doc Brown. But it takes the wild ideas to push the envelope sometimes, and if one of those wild ideas strikes lightning… ZOOOOOMMMM!!!!

Cross your fingers, guys, and hope…

At a glance to the new article, it also looks like to be producing more energy than is put in. Free energy and a space drive in one fell swoop! It's a regular
YouTube link

If it really does work, obviously. Of which I remain rather skeptical ATM.

I actually desperately hope it's not true since the only likely outcome of a reaction-less drive future is planet-cracking missiles and wars won by extinction.

-Will

actually desperately hope it's not true since the only likely outcome of a reaction-less drive future is planet-cracking missiles and wars won by extinction

Aren't we the Debbie Downer of TMP today!
While it's true that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a really big gun (quoting Howard Tayler), that doesn't mean the gun will inevitably be fired. Even ISIS aren't stupid enough to intentionally destroy the planet. (Hard to rule what ain't there.)

Aren't we the Debbie Downer of TMP today! laugh
While it's true that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a really big gun (quoting Howard Tayler), that doesn't mean the gun will inevitably be fired. Even ISIS aren't stupid enough to intentionally destroy the planet. (Hard to rule what ain't there.)

Maybe. Not convinced that some future Mars-Earth conflict wouldn't see see one or both planets being turned onto dense debris fields.

Besides, what happens when some relativistic freighter experiences a control failure, goes tragically off course and smacks into good 'ol Earth? Any universe with reaction-less drives that actually really work is a terrible incident waiting to happen. So yes, I both think and hope this is the research of cranks and nothing ever comes of it.

-Will

Luddites of the Galaxy, Unite!

I'm no luddite; I fully support space exploration and research into exotic spacecraft propulsion techniques. But this research project is , and even if it wasn't it's a most likely a terrible, bad, no good idea.

-Will

Also more to the point, if it does work as claimed it's actually a free energy machine, which is way, way, way more important than any possible use of it as a space-craft drive. So the reaction shouldn't be 'oh we just opened up the solar system to manned exploration, nice!' the reaction should be 'holy ing mother of Christ we just broke physics and are now limitless-energy gods'.

-Will

Seriously, Will, your scenarios are absurdly far-fetched. One assumes that Mars colonization will inevitably happen, will happen on a large enough scale to produce a significant Mars political society interested and capable of waging war, and will inevitably result in conflict, and that Mars will be self sufficient enough to no longer need Earth as a source of supply, and is willing to risk the potential side effects of "cracking a planet." Look, I've read Heinlein and KSR's Mars books, and they're great fiction (well, not so much KSR's last one), but they're just fiction, not predictive models.

As for the freighter scenario, that too assumes a whole host of improbable future developments, and of course the absence of perfectly logical and reasonable fail safes (like, say, disconnecting the power). But even if not, you just blow up the freighter before it can hit the planet. One missile up the tailpipe, as it were, and problem solved. Not really all that scary a scenario (or likely, for that matter).

Wait, so the EM drive will not lead to human exploration and colonization of the solar system? So why get excited about it's potential as a space-drive in the first place if it leads to nothing?

If the Em-drive works than all bets about what the plausible mid-future of humanity looks like are off. But yes, the scenarios are far fetched. So is the EM-drive. ;)

But in the end I am getting worked up over nothing, since this research will amount to nothing.

-Will

I don't think it's the free energy machine you seem to think it is. At this stage, it looks to me like it's a potential thrust producer that requires energy input from a power plant but no reaction mass component. It still requires power generation, and thus fuel, to operate the drive, but it doesn't require significant propellant mass, which is the biggest drawback of a rocket. But when the power plant runs out of fuel, the drive stops thrusting; it just needs less fuel mass and thus can go farther, faster, and longer than conventional rocket systems. Or at least that's what I understand the situation to be.

Wait, so the EM drive will not lead to human exploration and colonization of the solar system? So why get excited about it's potential as a space-drive in the first place if it leads to nothing?

Colonization is not as simple as an efficient drive system, Will. Just because we could get to Mars in a comparatively small amount of time doesn't mean that all the other obstacles to developing long term, viable, self-sufficient human presence will be resolved overnight, if ever. Yes, I want Mars colonization, too, but realistically the issues of low gravity, temperature extremes, toxic surface soil and dust, no ready water supply, etc., etc. may in the end prove too much even for the most ardent Zubrinites. Exploration, of course, will expand greatly, but colonization in the scale you mention may remain nothing but science fiction.

But if colonization is viable, then it would happen with conventional systems, so lamenting an EMdrive is moot. Further, if your future Mars-Earth conflict arises, your future Martian rebels wouldn't need an EMdrive to cause mass extinction; they'd just slap ordinary mass drivers on Phobos and point it at Earth. WHAM. Planet-killer rock, no EMdrive needed. (You do remember Star Fist, right? )

So what you're worried about either won't happen or won't be prevented by not having EMdrives anyway. So on that point, your argument isn't valid. You've got way more standing with the physics argument. As I said, yeah, I want the EMdrive to be true, but I think the skepticism has merit as well. But I don't fear either outcome.

If it's truly reaction-less (and the thrust is not being produced by something mundane like the copper plating vaporizing) then by definition it's free energy. If it's producing .4N/kW as the article states than it's producing more than a kW of kinetic energy for every kW put into it once it's velocity is high enough. That's the very definition of free energy. You'd be able to create an 'engine' out of this and have unlimited free energy once it was spun up. Makes a manned mission to Titan seem pretty mundane in comparison!

-Will

Also, it's not that humans couldn't destroy each other without a reaction-less drive, it's just a reaction-less drive (that one could apparently cobble together out of a microwave and a copper vessel, like the EM drive) makes it incredibly easy. Generally individuals become more destructive the more energy they have access to. And the EM-drive (or reaction less drives in general) put unlimited energy in the hands of anyone who wants it. It's all about risk mitigation.

-Will

If it's truly reaction-less (and the thrust is not being produced by something mundane like the copper plating vaporizing) then by definition it's free energy.

It's not reaction-less, by their claims. But I admit that level of physics is beyond my pay grade!

In any case, *something* is happening. You're right to be skeptical. But in this case, the skepticism should not be an automatic write off, but call for more extensive testing.

By the way, after a bit of research, I need to correct some errors in my statements above. The Cannae drive was not designed or tested in Italy, but is a US invention. I'm not clear on who tested it; I think it may have been the same NASA group as who tested the EMdrive. There were actually three devices based on the Cannae drive which were tested. One was the drive without slots, one with slots, which the inventor thought would prevent the drive from working (the so-called "null" version), and one which generated power the same way but, if I have this correct, did not have the nozzle shape of the other two and was in fact the intended control in the experiment, rather than the slotted version, which was not meant to be a null. The control device in that experiment did not generate thrust, so at least the nozzle shape of the Cannae drive apparently did have significance in its generation of thrust, however that may have happened.

There is also a third design from China which has reportedly generated thrust as well.

If the emdrive works, I expect a mad rush to grab up Mars by American conservatives and the Chinese. That in itself might make for a great venue for a game.
But considering how many planets are being discovered every week it sees like, I hope I will live to see the first generation ships leaving our Solar system before I die.

You could absolutely get a game out of assuming the EMdrive works. I wouldn't bet too heavily on getting anything more than assumptions thereof out of the thing but maybe it'll turn out to be the real deal. After all, inductive reasoning based on the premise that none of previous free energy machines and magic space engines has really worked very well is only a probability, not an inevitability.

Right, I don't want to say it's 100% impossible we'll discover a free energy machine like the EM-drive, and re-write the book on physics. But if we DO discover one, using it for space travel would be one of the least important possible applications.

-Will