"Should the target size modifier be affected by range?" Topic

Playing 1/285th WW2 tank battles based mostly on Panzerwar tables, but this issue would affect any rule set.
When we determine the chance for a hit, the target size modifier can swing your chance of a hit by a given percentage.
But should that percentage remain constant at any range?
I have 2 diverging thoughts on this.
On the one hand, your dispersion increases dramatically at longer ranges, and the target size becomes a smaller percentage within the dispersion zone. For example a Sherman firing at a target 2500 meters away might be missing by 10 feet, but at a closer range a miss is more likely by inches, with a smaller dispersion to target size ratio.
On the other hand, at really close ranges the target fills the reticle – doesn't really matter how big or small the target, it is a sure kill as long as the crosshair is on target.
Maybe target size affect is small at very close range, then more significant, then at long range less significant again?
Any intelligent thoughts on this appreciated!

It probably should but the amount would depend on the Optics of the firing tank.

WIthout knowing the rules, I'd say it's already factored in by applying a range penalty.

Even at long range, identifying and getting a firing solution on a KV1 would be easier than a T70 which in turn would be easier than a motorcycle.

While the chance of an "off-centre" shot still hitting is bigger up close, I'd reason that it's compensated for by simply being easier to identify the target to begin with, at range.

If you're a realism-hound and the game already factors size into spotting, then go for it.

From a pure design perspective, I'm hesitant to "double-dip" by having range affect more than one thing.

I would simplify it by using only the one modifier. The difference at different ranges may be smaller than the increments on the dice you use.

My opinion is that if you are going to tweak any of Panzer War's rules or gunnery tables you need to know what the designer had in mind, how he modeled it, what he left out or threw away and what he abstracted. If not you may be implementing a modifier that is redundant or meaningless in the overall outcome. It's one of the best gunnery models out there. Other than that ask the guy that designed the game.

Wolfhag

Gunnery it appears involves much that is is misconcieved. Proably the biggest factor, even more so than range, is crossing rate and rate of increase in range. Crossing rate is the rate at which for the sake of agument the gun has to turn. To get a fireing solution you need to estimate the speed and direction of the target and estimate where it will be when the munition get there. This is much harder than range so proably its not worth doing much more on range and target size than the original designer has done. There is proably vety little diffrence between a small ank side on and a big tank head on. So again trying to be too clever won't actualy get much extra accuracy. Even we at MG decided that crossing rate was just not worth the effort. We settled for a simple moving self or target penalty. In the end its aboaut broad tactics and command and control. Where do you stop "canted trunnion error"?

My "two penerth" leave it alone there will be bigger errors elsewhere that you can fix.

It's about angles, and if you already have 'small, medium, large' targets then those angles are already factored in anyway.

There was an extensive discussion about the hit probability formulas etc in Panzer Wars a couple of years ago:

TMP link

I think the executive summary is 'it is fine as it is'.

The rules I play with have a TO HIT roll and if successful, a TO KILL roll. No hit locations to deal with so its very streamlined.

To reflect target size, the Armor Rating is bumped up just a bit from normal for lower silhouetted vehicles like Hetzers or Stugs, and smaller vehicles such as Stuarts,etc…
This makes them a tad harder to knock out without having to add in another modifier like "target size". Not the way most folks would solve the problem, but its the results that matter, and the easier you can arrive at those results the faster the play.

A Sherman firing at 2500 metres? Why?

Artillery addition during a Pepperpot?

Why not? I read one account where they engaged soft targets at 3000 yards (in Holland).