"UK Wargames Shows" Topic

In recent years I have stopped attending Wargames shows, this came about after a bit of a think about the pros and cons of attending wargames show. The cons, unfortunately, far out weighed the pros. This is just my personal opinion but the cons are as follows:

cost of fuel.
Time to get to a show – 2 to 3 hours each way to get to a wargames show for one day
Car parking – can be a nightmare.
Queuing to get in.
Paying to get in.
Overpriced bad tea and coffee.
Over priced bad food.
Claustrophobia – small crowded venues packed in too tightly
General lack of courtesy of wargamers at shows (I am 6 foot 4 and always make an effort to stand back or out of the way when viewing a trade stand etc so other people can do likewise, but always end up with people moving directly in front of me and even jostling me out of the way as they assume they are more important).
Lack of personal hygiene of wargamers (seem to think the only use for a shower is as a spraying booth).
It just seems to be a giant shopping trip but you don't save any money as the postage you save goes on fuel and over priced drinks, food and entrance fee.
No space to actually have meet and greet games – you can't just go along and get talking, grab a spare table and have a game with someone you just met who have armies for the same period/conflict as you.
So called rest areas (tables and chairs etc) always at a premium and nosy, crowded affairs.
Over priced crap beer (if not driving obviously).
Due to the rude jostling nature of attendees, it is very difficult to get a decent few photos to remember the occasion by even though you stood back whilst the other fella took a nice photo, that same fella or group of people then refuse to accept your existence.
Fewer of the traders I buy from are attending shows now in the uk now.

This is of course just my personal opinion. I am only 32 but maybe I am getting old and grumpy before my time but I just don't see the point in their current format.

Gosh – you have been unlucky…!

DBDD

Not just me – a couple of my companions are of a similar opinion.

I agree with quite a few of your points:

Transport costs – for travel to London shows I resort to public transport – but it isn't cheap

Time to get to a show – sometimes find I've spent more time travelling than at the show. That's not good.

Queuing to get in. – are we talking Salute?

Overpriced bad tea and coffee. – I do resent that as well
Over priced bad food – same as for coffee/tea.

Jostling at traders – I'm a squirt and I get that too. If it's too bad I just don't bother and find a quieter trader.

On the plus side – I always try out game or two, some of them are fun. I do like the shopping . Never had a problem getting photos. I like to see th mega-stunning games, although I don't really aspire to them : it's nice to see what really committed gamers can achieve

For all the bother I like to get to a couple a year at least. So, that's a plus overall for me.

Oh, to have the luxury to get to choose not to visit huge hobby events when one has them within driving distance

I went to a wargames show on Sunday.

I drove for 4 hours getting there.

I spent 4 hours at the show.

I drove for another 4 hours getting home.

When I was at the show I bought things I could have had delivered.

All sort of negative points so far, perhaps.

While I was at the show I met quite a few old friends, a few new ones and perhaps have made a new friend or two.

Priceless.

These meetings vastly outweighed any negatives.

I also got some decent food and drink.

Would I do it again, you're damn right!

I've even been to far away shows where I flew there the day before and flew home the day after.

Whilst I agree that the schlep and hassle of the logistics can be offputting you have to assess whether the benefits of the show, once you're there, are worth it. Clearly, in your case, you don't feel they are.

I think UK wargames shows suffer from two cultural problems. The first is that there's a strong feeling among many (if not most) gamers that they are just shopping trips and that the games presented are of secondary importance. When there's talk of an upcoming show, the question usually asked is which traders will be there rather than which games are going to be run. Consequently I find a lot of UK shows lacking a positive vibe or atmosphere because attendees are focussed on browsing and buying and a lot of shows "die" after lunchtime as the shoppers leave in their droves.

The second is the uncommunicative or surly gaming group who put on a demonstration (or static diorama) game and don't engage with the public. I feel a lot of those games and groups drive people into the shopping mentality because there's little in terms of gaming to be done if there aren't enough interesting participation games.

Definitely the lack of decent rest areas, tables and chairs to put your feet up at, is a problem at most shows and maybe organisers should think of that a bit more. As for showing up, meeting new people and having instant games with them, I've never seen that at a UK show and seems more in line with the American way of doing conventions. I would like to see a few of the things American conventions do done in the UK (an emphasis on participation games, more speakers and seminars, a willingness to engage with the attendees) but my experience is that most British gamers like their shows the way they are…albeit with better lighting in the halls.

I've been attending shows now for 30 years (and exhibiting in some form since 1988) … I regularly do over a dozen shows but it is dropping these days mostly down to the cost and inconvenience of attending (roads are more congested these days, drivers worse, fuel more expensive etc. etc.)

I did 10 shows and 10 related events last year

I still get a thrill out of putting on games and of meeting people. But shows are not as good as they once were from my point of view …

I can echo some of the points above in my list …

*bodies – too many: back in the 80s and 90s people didn't wear back packs and they really do make spaces much tighter (as well as cause drink spillages etc.) … they really are a pain.

*bodies – stench: this has become a problem over the last few years (it really didn't used to be like that) … I have no idea whether this is an influx of smelly new enthusiasts (I have some culprits but I'm not naming any of the recent game fashions lest it offend) or the same olds dropping their standards – but it is becoming a real problem.

*boring – to me at least … lots of traders chasing the same bucks (Flames of War, 28mm plastic boxes piled high, latest variant of MDF flatpacks etc. etc.) – lots of stands, but not much variety.

*boring games – to me at least … 28mm skirmish games sponsored by 28mm manufacturers morphing the same basic concepts into everything from cavemen to spacemen.

*boring blogs – to me at least … endless photographs of trade stands piled high with FoW tanks, 28mm plastics and silfor tufts … or skirmish games with piles of the same stuff the traders sell (because they supplied free figures to make sure their products were on display)

All OK, all appealing to some people but no real innovation or variety …

… and nobody seems to want to play wargames or stop and chat the way they used to … shop, scoff (leaving the litter around), bump into people, sneer at stuff they don't understand then call it a day at 2pm …

At least, it can seem like that on a bad day …

*food … actually, I don't have too many gripes. I do like posh expensive coffee (and the coffee at shows these days is light years ahead of the cheap brownish water they served in days gone) but I agree about dining areas – these are a must. It should be OK for traders/exhibitors to have refreshments in the main areas (as they have a vested interest in keeping the place tidy) but otherwise it does seem wargamers are too messy (the Britcon catastrophe)

*general rest areas. I think this is going to become a problem as we get older … Get rid of the back packs will solve a lot of the problem but most venues simply do not provide enough chairs. As an exhibitor it is usual to have to hunt to get chairs for the people on the stand. That means there are already none left for you visitors before the show has even started.

I'm sure there are some familiar gripes there … even so I am still full of enthusiasm for 2015 … WMMS, Salute, Campaign, Partizan, Triples, Phalanx … Yes!!

Come talk to us

Phil
Society of Ancients(Shows North)
often teamed with Lance & Longbow Society and/or
Northampton Battlefields Society

The first is that there's a strong feeling among many (if not most) gamers that they are just shopping trips and that the games presented are of secondary importance.

I think the reason many gamers see the games at shows as of secondary importance is this. There are two types of games at a show. Demo games that you can't take part in just watch. If there's one thing I've learned over my many years in the hobby it is that wargaming is not a spectator sport!

Party ganes are short, fun and entertaining. But why go to a show and play in party games, when I can do that the rest of the time at home or at a club?

Show time is for doing the things I can't do anywhere else: meeting friends and buying "over the counter" from traders. The latter saves on postage and you also get to see the stuff "in the flesh (metal?)" so to speak. There's also the possibility of impulse perchases …

@ 20thmaine – you are absolutely right, with the price of public transport in the UK it aint a good alternative mode of transport to and from a show. Salute is definitely a show I wish to avoid in the future.

@Rhoderic – that's the point, I don't think you are missing much!

@JimDuncan – you have obviously had better experiences than myself. One of the major put offs is that its not a sociable occasion in the UK now. It is very hard to catch up with old friends and to meet new people apart from traders… The atmosphere is non-existent at shows.

@ubercommando – I never have seen the point of demo games. Waste of space set up by disinterested and as you put seemingly surly wargamers. Demo games add no value to a wargames show. I would definitely much prefer the USA convention style of wargames show here in the UK – I think that is what I am getting at. When you see photos on here of USA conventions, people are sat down playing games or enjoying a lecture in a light, airy venue with plenty of room, tables and chairs. I know space isat much more of a premium in the UK but surely it cant be that hard to make it about wargaming rather than the GW games day affair that it has become.

@Yesthatphil – oh I forgot about the rucksack wearers! They seem to be everywhere now! Why, why, why, oh why would you do that! It is sheer ignorance to wear a big rucksack on your back whilst walking around a crowded wargames show!

Also, I think you have hit the nail on the head, the shows are full, but full of the same old, same old 28mm plastics and 28mm skirmishes, everywhere, to the rafters. I have no interest in 28's so maybe this is why shows are so uninteresting to me. It is the lack of variety, imagination, and originality.

I once made the mistake of trying to engage a gentleman sitting next to a large WW2 desert table full of FOW stuff. After a couple of monosyllabic grunts from said gentleman, I walked away thinking what was the point of all that then! It was just space waste as far as I was concerned.

It might be down to the fact I am not prone to fads, I don't own any skirmish games or 28mm figures. I have just started a 7 years war project using Freikorps 15's initially. Where have the 15's gone at shows!?

The social aspect is also a major factor for me as well. No one wants to chat, traders are too harassed to really stop and talk, theres no room to really stop and talk and the atmosphere is not a socially conducive one either.

If a decent lounge or rest area with tables and chairs were provided then it would make a huge difference qand I don't mean a couple of those high metallic events tables with a couple of stools, I mean a large hotel lounge area, with pub style tables and chairs.

Maybe I will give it another go this year and come and say hi. Looking at WMMS.

The comments about uncommunicative gamers not talking are interesting. I have also come across the opposite. Strolling past a table, you stop for a second to identify the war/battle and one of the guys running the game mistakes your curiosity for obsession. He engages you in conversation, explaining in great detail the finer points of warfare in the period, the weapons technology involved, the political situation that produced the conflict, and the careers and personalities of the commanders involved!

You have a choice. Appear impolite and walk away while he is talking, or nod politely for 45 minutes while you listen!

Enthusiasm is a good thing, but people have to get the balance right!

boring blogs – to me at least … endless photographs of trade stands piled high with FoW tanks, 28mm plastics and silfor tufts … or skirmish games with piles of the same stuff the traders sell (because they supplied free figures to make sure their products were on display)

I don't think that's really a fault of the shows…although I agree the photos of "every trader at the show" gets a bit much for a show with more than about a dozen traders. I can see the point at smaller shows as it's generally acting as advertising for the next year. It's still a bit dull, but I can understand why it happens.

Oh, and as a backpack wearer – a small one though, just 25L not a full size 70L+ sack – I'll add a different gripe – the people with wheeled luggage. It's so unexpected that I've walked into them a few times and almost ended up flat on my face on one occasion.

Why do I have a sack ? Need something to carry the camera, a bottle of water, a snack and maybe a jumper and still have hands free to browse/play in a game. And somewhere to put the little bit of new stuff I always seem to buy.

Dear Rhysius Cambrensis

Well, the shows you are talking about sound horrible.

I've never been to a UK show, but have gone to many American shows and run a few of them.

cost of fuel.

This must be a English/European thing, in America we don't care.

Time to get to a show – 2 to 3 hours each way to get to a wargames show for one day.

Would that we had that takes four to eight for me.

Car parking – can be a nightmare.

No pretty good.

Queuing to get in.

Very little of this.

Paying to get in.

Not bad.

Overpriced bad tea and coffee.

It's at a convention center, what do you expect.

Over priced bad food.

Go off site? We do this all the time.

Claustrophobia – small crowded venues packed in too tightly.

We rarely have this problem in America.

General lack of courtesy of wargamers at shows (I am 6 foot 4 and always make an effort to stand back or out of the way when viewing a trade stand etc so other people can do likewise, but always end up with people moving directly in front of me and even jostling me out of the way as they assume they are more important).

Oh well you get that all over.

Lack of personal hygiene of wargamers (seem to think the only use for a shower is as a spraying booth).

Yup have that here.

It just seems to be a giant shopping trip but you don't save any money as the postage you save goes on fuel and over priced drinks, food and entrance fee.

Conventions in America are about 20% tournament games, and 80% walk up and play games. There are no demonstration games, and private party games are non-existant. Believe me, saying you can watch but can't play will guarantee you won't be bothered -- by anyone-- ever.

No space to actually have meet and greet games – you can't just go along and get talking, grab a spare table and have a game with someone you just met who have armies for the same period/conflict as you.

God, but we have loads of space for that and do it all the time at our cons.

So called rest areas (tables and chairs etc) always at a premium and nosy, crowded affairs.

Nah, in America, guys will set out a party at a spare table, and invite anyone to join. In fact, at my convention, "The Weekend" held in Lancaster PA (this year it will be held from the 18th evening to the 21st morning) We have right smack dab in the center of the floor- "the Munchie Pit" It's a circle of 8 big comfy chairs and some other around it (like couches) and in the center is the pil of beer, wine, soda, munchies, food, and so forth. It's all free, if you want to contribute just bring up a box of something or a case of something and toss it in the ice-chests. We use the Munchie pit for gamers to rest between games and also as the area where GM's go to dragoon players for the game just starting up

Over priced crap beer (if not driving obviously).

It's everything from big names to micro- breweries- to high end stuff.

Due to the rude jostling nature of attendees, it is very difficult to get a decent few photos to remember the occasion by even though you stood back whilst the other fella took a nice photo, that same fella or group of people then refuse to accept your existence.

Did you ask?

Fewer of the traders I buy from are attending shows now in the uk now.

I don't go to shows to buy. We have a huge dealers area in the HMGS cons (Cold Wars, Historicon, and Fall-In!but but it takes me about 10 minutes to go through it- I know who carries what I want, I know their lines, and I'll simply order it from them and have it shipped to me.

It seems to me that the big problem with the UK is space. You guys won't drive more than 2 or 3 hours (whereas in America we'll drive two days if it's a good show) and space in that you've outgrown your facilities.

OSchmidt, you have put your finger on our problem. Space.

Space is very expensive here. That is what happens when you have a population density of 679 people per square mile. By contrast, the USA has a density of 84 people per square mile!

@ Cerdic and 20thmaine … to emphasise … my enthusiasm for the wargame and the show is undiminished but I did think Rhysius had some fair insights.

I agree about balance … I wouldn't think I'm an obsessive but, yes, I am an enthusiast. I more often encounter the criticism on these pages that people on the stand ignored me so 'that we may engage too much' is just a sign that it is all about getting the balance right.

Back Packs are a problem however – you just can't get around it (all meanings intended) – they reduce everyone's space and that's a fact. I know they are the fashionable way to carry things but they can be removed and carried by hand (it actually keeps them handier for stuffing your goodies in …) … It defeats me why people won't do that.

I think the points about rest areas and chairs are the big unaddressed issues, however. There are plenty of enthusiasts these days who remain keen and capable of a day's showgoing as long as they can take the weight off their feet every so often. But we need them as much as we need the youngsters (which we all used to be).

WMMS – see you there … I'll try and talk to everyone (but not for too long )

Phil

Dear Cedric

It's obvious. But surely there must be some way around it. There MUST be facilities that are larger the normal haunt of gamers, or am I mistaken in that and also are the costs prohibitive? Are the costs for those facilities beyond the means of war game conventions.

I don't want to prattle on with solutions that are no help, but there might be a way around it. I see this all the time when people in the UK talk with gamers in the US and it usually ends badly with Americans proposing solutions that are not do-able by people in England, and the English gamers sneering at some aspects of American conventions, which I frankly think sometimes is making a virtue out of necessity.

In the end, Cerdic, I suspect that the issue really isn't SPACE, but money to support the space.

We've bandied this about here and there on TMP but on OUR SIDE of the pond the sticking point is the facility.

The problem IN AMERICA unlike England is you can have 100 to 3,000 people descend on a hotel with conference facilities AND STAY THERE for four days, which they are usually not set up to handle. Most hotels assume they will have casual touristas who will take rooms and then during the day vacate the premesis and "touristize" allowing housekeeping and the restaurants to recover. They don't expect to have people descend on them, take up every spare itsy bitsy room of conference space and infest the hotel for four days. It's a strain most hotels don't have the set up for. Then there's the size. How many rooms, how many rooms for games, how much do you get room credit on the guest rooms to defray the cost of the meeting room. Hoteliers are in the business of renting rooms, not renting conference rooms. That's where they make their money. On the other hand, if in England people don't stay overnight…..that's another loss of revenue.

Finally there's the force of habit. Most gamers on either side of the pond are used to what they've been going to all their lives and are not likely to change. If they go to conventions than they usually like the conventions they are going to and an "American" style convention in England, or an English style convention here would probably be abject failures as they would wouldn't be anything like what people are used to.

Otto

Try "Fisticuffs" in Weymouth, 30th May.
We limit the number of traders to about 12, so it is not over traded and have more space for games. Quite a few of the games are participation, so just ask and join in for a turn or two.
We also run a bring and buy.
Unfortunately parking is at the whim of the council but to off set that we only ask £2.50 GBP at the door to help pay for the venue (Weymouth Pavilion) which also has plenty of seating in the cafe or bar.

Otto. That is right. We have big enough venues, but they are expensive.

The main thing I would like to see are more rest areas, but again, that takes space. At most shows you would have to have fewer games and traders and maybe increase ticket prices to cover the lost revenue. Would that be appreciated by the show-going public? I don't know.

The point about actually playing a game at a show is linked, I believe, to the fact that most UK shows are one day only. The typical show may be on from 10 till 5. How long does your average wargame last? Four hours maybe? That does not leave much time to take in the rest of the show, do your shopping, talk to a mate, have lunch, etc etc! This may explain why so many participation games seem to be skirmish-type jobs. They are generally shorter!

This is a very interesting string. Being from the US of A, I have always had a hard time understanding the UK type of con. Probably just ignorance on my part. I do wonder about a couple of things and maybe my UK comrades can set me straight on these. Does the price of admission for a UK con just cover the costs of the con or is it the intent to make money? Given that you could get more space, would an American type con have any sort of success or be considered popular with UK gamers? I hope you all can put on better cons, by your standards, in the future, but we seem to have the same type of debates going on here as well as there with regard to space and cost. And the quality of the facilities.

I refuse to attend the big London show as it is too expensive for me to travel from up North and hotels are ridiculously priced around the capital. Parking and entrance fee are extortionate for a 1 day show.

I do travel regularly travel to shows in the Midland and in the North as they are far better value. Triples (in Sheffield) and the World Championships (at Donnington) we make a weekend of it. Travel on the Friday morning (then drink copious amounts of beer). We then attend the shows on the Saturday and Sunday leaving after lunch on the Sunday.

I tend to buy more impulse buys at the shows, things I have not seen on the Web or I did see on the web and wasn't sure off.

Occasionally I pick up a bargain from the Bring & Buy.

It's also a great place to meet up with old friends and chat with the Traders.

Lots of the shows I used to attend to are no more and that's why it's important to support them to keep them going.

Dear Cerdic

Yes, you see, that goes to the difference. American Wargame shows, even the small ones are huge floppy things that blunder around forever. They usually go from 8 till… whenever housekeeping throws you out of the gaming hall, and even at my small "The Weekend" Convention, it's 5,000 sq ft. But the time is a concern. We begin at 8, and as I say game till 1 and 2 in the morning, but remember most people stay at the hotel for a two or three day event.

Rest and BS areas will impact on the space and the time. What is the square footage of your cons over there on the average? We have plenty of this, and the hotel lobby as well where we can sit and toss the bull. Also the restaurant in the hotel. The ballroom costs us about $1,000 USD for the two days we really use it. Usually we cover about 2/3 of that from room credits, the rest from admissions and donations. If you take a room, the con is free. We're not out to make money here just to cover out expenses which I expect is the case with you guys over there on the other side.

At the Weekend we don't have Vendors. Several come, but they are our friends and they don't bring stock with them. They come strictly for the games. Of course if you want to order something from them, if you tell them ahead of time they'll have it there for you to buy.

I gather most people in England would not want to spend money for a night at a hotel. In America I've found the hotel will bend over backwards for you if you're going to rent out 100 rooms or so.

Again, I suspect that much of what is done is done because it's reflective of long practiced habits. We have one guy who comes over to our "Weekend" convention every year from England because he loves it. He does some touring in the Gettysburg- Lancaster area, and he's a great guy. He likes this style of convention, but again,we're a pretty whacky group. Last year we had a game "Frederick the Great Invades Candyland." which was fought with 7 years war troops over a 6 x 24foot table made out to look like the board of Candyland. Other games sometimes tend to be fun and silly, like my "Honey I Sacrificed the Kids" Ancient Game.

One of the things we do at the Weekend is we always try and do something new. Sometimes it works, sometimes it flops.

Otto

Dear Cerdic

One more thing. Because we're so spread out, many gamers come to conventions to see the half a dozen friends from all over the land who they never see except at those three or four conventions. You may drive 6 hours to a convention and your friend may drive 8 hours, but either one of you driving 14 hours to see the other is a problem. So there is a lot of socializing. Second, there are always spare tables at even the biggest conventions to simply sit around yak with whoever comes by.

I won't drive for more than two hours to a show. Salute is 50 minutes drive for me – my nearest show. Relative to other 'days out' parking charges and entrance fee are as to be expected in my view, especially in relation to Salute. All other shows have free or cheap parking and the entrance fee is a few quid. Do you think attendance should be free for the public? The only way that could happen would be to charge the traders more. That would be counter productive. If you go to the cinema is that free?

Petrol price in the UK has fallen massively over the last few weeks so it's gone from expensive to not bad. Go with a friend or two and share the costs of travel and parking.

I go to a classic car show that costs £15.00 GBP to park and £25.00 GBP to get in the door. I also go to lots of model railway shows. They are often crowded, I get bumped into – you have to expect that if your going to a popular event. I often have to pay to park and to get into the show just as I would expect to for any other entertainment.

I'd prefer it if Salute was at Alley Pally as I think it would be a better venue with a bit more character than Excel which is a pretty unpleasant venue.

If you want more space made available to play a game or better/bigger rest areas that means the venues have to be larger and then the price of entry goes up.

However, queues at Salute have to be expected – it's a very popular show. Is there an alternative? Timed entry perhaps with a reduced ticket price? If you don't like the food and drinks available take your own or get out of the venue for a break. Of course the beer is rubbish you need to find a decent pub nearby if you want to drink.

I've always found shows to be very sociable and I meet lots of friends and get introduced to others so I'd have to strongly disagree with the OP on that point. I'l add that I've always found those putting on games more than willing to talk.

I'm not 6' 4" tall in fact I'm a bit less than average height but on the odd occasion when somebody has bashed into me they have always apologised. If in confined areas I carry my back pack rather than wear it – easier to keep it out of other peoples' way. To be honest I get knocked into in pubs more than I ever have done at a wargames show.

Attendance is on a purely voluntary basis – if you don't think it's worth it don't go. Take a break for a year or two then you might enjoy the shows you go do in a couple of years time.

The alternatives to a lot of your issues are difficult to find really. If you have to drive for too long, move house. Of course a ridiculous suggestion of mine but how else do you solve the issue – it's not the fault of the show organisers where you choose to live. If people are rude to you tell them so, they might not be in the future. I do agree there are a lot of thoughtless people out there but if nobody tells them they go on acting in the same way.

If your travel costs are high buy a more economical car … I'm not sure what you want people to say to things like that, isn't it just part of life?

Not sure what you do about smelly war gamers – anybody any suggestions?

If trader don't want to chat at length think about a day like Salute from their perspective. A long hard slog to hire and load a van or more, drive into London (say for Salute) wait to unload. Get set-up something to eat and get into the hotel. Up early for a mad day then pack up and get home. Not exactly a restful experience. And their purpose is to serve as many as they can and make a good profit. Again I've had time to talk to every trader I've wanted to at a show.

The good stuff for me:

Meeting friends
Meeting new people
Seeing some inspiring games
Getting to see things in the flesh rather than in photographs
Salute and other bigs shows give the chance to pick up lots of stuff if you only buy small amounts it's a very economical way to shop
Salute gives you the chance in a day to see masses of stuff
The buzz of having had a good day out for not a lot of money relative to other entertainments – how much is a football or theatre ticket? Etc

Something I like about shows is the chance to see something different. Walking round the traders you may see a range or model that sparks your interest that you may never have seen online as you wouldn't have even looked at their website.

make your vacation plans to include an exciting trip to the US…experience the pleasure of one of our conventions. Little Wars is in April, 24-26, take in Chicago after the convention.
hmgsmidwest.com

I might just save all my wargames money and spaff it on one trip to a U.S. convention. They sound so much better than uk shows!

It seems my old man whining has struck a chord. If show attendance has been rising over the last few years then just ignore my grumpy opinions but I have heard rumblings that show attendance has started to dip quite dramatically. If that is the case then may be we can help and offer suggestions that will only improve shows so that they are more inclusive and therefore successful.

"It defeats me why people won't do that."

Well, in my case it's because my hands are full of crutches that are stopping me falling over…

"Not sure what you do about smelly war gamers – anybody any suggestions?"

Wait? They won't breed so the problem will solve itself.

"It defeats me why people won't do that."

Well, in my case it's because my hands are full of crutches that are stopping me falling over…

Accepted … my point was obviously a generalisation. As I said, I enjoy shows and enjoy meeting fellow enthusiasts – I was merely addressing some of the topical issues. Most people can and should be more courteous than they generally are !

Phil

If 2– 3 hours travelling plus petrol and an entry fee is unreasonable for a show, as your first post suggests it is, you'll be three hours into your journey and have a really big parking fee before you even get on plane for further 7/8 hours, then you'll need to clear customs pick up your luggage and get your transfer to your hotel even after all that lot they'll still charge you for entry to the Con. Doesn't sound to me like you'd enjoy that one bit. Oh and shopping is unlikely to be as good as Salute.

You'll almost certainly get better service for your food than in the UK so that's a plus.

@KatieL
Brilliant but how long have we got to wait, I've been going to shows for 30+ years.

Does the price of admission for a UK con just cover the costs of the con or is it the intent to make money?

First of all, we don't have conventions in the UK, we have shows. The two are quite different.

Secondly most shows are not run for profit. The aim is to break even and maybe have a bit in the bank to coverr upfront costs for the following year.

Given that you could get more space, would an American type con have any sort of success or be considered popular with UK gamers?

I doubt it. As I and others have explained, we don't go to shows to play games, the emphasis is on the social aspects and the shopping.

Having said that, I have for many years attended a small residential wargames weekend that has about 50 participants and where the emphasis is very much on playing wargames. In fact we do little else apart from eating and sleeping! Typically there is only 1 "trader" and a bring'n'buy table.

Daear Rhysius Cambrensis

Well then if you're of a mind to and want to come out for our June Convention I'll put you in touch with one of our other English Gamers who come over every year, along with another guy from England. Granted it's more expensive with the air and hotel, but the Lancaster Area where the convention is held has Gettysburg less than an hour away along with several American Revolutionary War sites. if you come, make sure to get here for the kick-off dinner held Thursday evening.

You know one thing I hear is you English always squealing about the cost. 25 pounds doesn't seem so much and I wondere why you have to pay for parking? As for gas, two to three hours is 180 miles and that's at 35 miles to the gallon five gallons or $15 USD or so American. From an American point of view, British shows with vendors who you can buy from on line and not have to lug it around, and watching other people play a game or a demonstration game that is all to often obviously unplayable seems to us about as interesting as watching paint dry. We in America, are much more interested in meeting new people and gaining new friend.

Ottoathome

It's all about geography and distance I guess. We have to pay for parking as most car parks at venues are managed in some way or other and if you don't pay you may well get clamped and have a £100.00 GBP+ fee to get the clamp removed. The Reading show car park was £1.00 GBP and they refunded that so it was free. Salute it as a major exhibition centre with parking underneath it that you have to buy a ticket for. Partizan is free to park – it just depends on the venue.

Petrol is far more expensive here but we tend not to drive big distances. The furthest I'll drive to a show is 100 miles so 200 round trip is costing me about £20.00 GBP in gas @ 50 miles to the gallon. Salute is half that distance, £15.00 GBP to park and £11.00 GBP to get in the door. That's a cheap day out in my book.

I think there is a difference when you can actually see the models rather than base an opinion on often not very good on-line pictures. If you go to the show you may as well pick up your purchases to save on the postage cost, you can either drop them in your car that's 5 minutes away or pick them up towards the end of the day. There are some games you can play but generally speaking most of us can get a game without having to drive more than about 10 miles so it's no big deal to play on a show day. There's usually so much to see and buy and so many people to catch-up with that in the 7 hours of the show (Salute) there isn't really enough time to play. As I say different geography makes for the differences between UK shows and US Cons.

I don't think there's a great difference though – to me the shows are mainly social. I buy a little and look at some inspiring looking games and figures but mostly it's about meeting people and having chat with the Perrys and seeing what new releases they are launching at the show.

I disagree with almost all the points raised by the original poster

I live in Scotland and get to 4 of our shows a year and usually a couple down in England. I would love to do more but have to balance hobby time and family time. Of course all have their pluses and minuses but I think compared to anywhere else in the world we have a very vibrant show circuit.

The one criticism that does ring true with me is the lack of seating and tables for chilling out. I am one of the organisers of Carronade at Falkirk and admit that is a problem for us too. The thing is that we take the biggest venue that we have been able to find in Falkirk, which is a school. We host 40+ traders and 40+ games. Any additional space for seating would be at the expense of one of these and that is a really hard decision to take

It is interesting to comare the UK to the US. I get the impression that a lot of their conventions are actualy quite small in terms of traders and attendees with most of the space used for gaming, which actually sounds very attractive to me. However if the annual 'where should Historicon be held' debate is anything to go by getting good venues can be an issue over there as well

My experience is quite different from the original poster. Having been to Historicon, I'd agree that there are clear differences between UK and US Shows. Much of that is driven by cultural differences.

In the UK, most of us will have at least one wargames club within ten miles, maybe three of four within 25 miles. As a result we tend to get our gaming done regularly close to home.

What we don't have many of are wargame shops or stores. As a result we tend to go to shows to shop and to view products in the flesh. That said, contrary to the seemingly firmly held belief across the pond, we DO have participation games. I've probably run fifty or more games at shows over the last ten years and they have all bee participation games. I am not alone in that and, according to some recent research I did, participation games are increasing in numbers.

However, with participation games we are limited by time. A fairly normal UK show would be from 1000 to 1700 with most gamers not attending for the full time. As such we tend to create games which are an hour to 90 minutes in duration so that players and audience get so sample a rule set rather than play all day. Unlike a US Con, game tables are allocated for the duration of the show, so we will be there all day running the same game three or four times.

My own experience is that wargames shows are much more social now than they used to be. People who run blogs tend to have their meet up, people from various Yahoo groups or forums will get to meet people who they previously only knew on line. Obviously this only happens if you have invested a little time on the web getting involved in different groups, but like everything in life, you get out what you put in.

I'm vaguely amused by the "English" "squealing" about the price of fuel. Until very recently, petrol in the UK was around $US10 for a gallon. I did two shows last weekend, one in Cardiff on Saturday, one in York on Sunday. For the 800 to 900 miles I did, I spent about $250 USD in fuel. That is $250 USD on top of anything I spent. I haven't squealed about that at all, but it is worth putting that into context compared to US fuel prices.

As for over-priced tea/coffee/beer/food/parking, smelly people, claustrophobia and all the rest; try going to a football match, or see a band in concert, or go out clubbing and you'll find all of those issues there. This is because the events are popular, so lots of people turn up and they are at large venues where catering is designed to relieve you of your hard earned cash. If you don't like that, there are still plenty of smaller shows on the UK circuit in Scout huts, but the tea is often even worse and you can't get a beer at all.

Is there demand in the UK for US style Cons? Certainly not among the traders I was discussing this with at the weekend. It simply adds to their costs and they take very little more money. Indeed there is a move in the UK towards one day shows rather than two days. I also see very little in the way of the public wanting longer shows. Most of us simply get our gaming done at a different time and a different place: the local club.

I'm going to speak up for participation games and cast a critical eye over the shopping trip motive for going to a show.

Everyone here agrees that the social side of wargaming is crucial to having a good convention experience. Now, you can either get that from meeting old friends from all over the country or you can do that by meeting new people over a game. You are less likely to have a nice chat with someone new whilst browsing a trade stand. The participation game is ideal for meeting like minded gamers, or to enjoy the social aspects of the game. The big rucksack phenomenon is abated, as bags usually go under the table.

Now, I'm not against a company making money by flogging and promoting their wares at a show. If a manufacturer of a certain line of 28mm figures and rules is putting on a game, I'm not against that because you may have read about the products, you may have heard about them, but here's the opportunity to try them out for yourself. That's how I discovered 7TV and got to know the fine folk over at Crooked Dice and Ainsty. I really wanted to try the Chain of Command game at Salute but it was so popular, I kept missing out.

However, and this is where the organisers can come in, there's got to be a balance between promoted commercial games being run and the truly original or off the beaten track. In inviting and compiling prospective games for the show, try and have a balance. I can still clearly remember the 1920s gangster game that won best game at Salute '95 where actions were resolved using the combinations of a fruit machine. Or the more recent upscaled Escape From Colditz game. The club I'm a member of, Staines Wargamers, produce a string of home brewed games and take them around shows. We want all kinds of people coming along and trying them. If people go away and are inspired to try their own version, that's great. A show should have games that enthuse punters and of the type that you wouldn't normally get at your weekly club meetings.

I did the trader trudge for years, then went home and read a blog about the show, kicking myself for missing out on some great looking games that people enthused about.

"It is interesting to comare the UK to the US. I get the impression that a lot of their conventions are actualy quite small in terms of traders and attendees with most of the space used for gaming, which actually sounds very attractive to me. However if the annual 'where should Historicon be held' debate is anything to go by getting good venues can be an issue over there as well"

There are many US shows that fit what you have described. There are also many that are quite large. At Little Wars we expect about 30 Vendors for the weekend. We also have an area set aside for Flea Market. The game area is quite large and we will have over 200 event games. We also have an area where gamers can sit and take a break and get some food and/or drink. I like to run very large games, and have run some that had as many as 40 players involved. Not something many can do in their home.

It might be down to the fact I am not prone to fads, I don't own any skirmish games or 28mm figures.

I prefer 28mm figures……….didn't know it was just a fad.

I have just started a 7 years war project using Freikorps 15's initially. Where have the 15's gone at shows!?

I assume the vendors know what they are doing. They can't bring along their entire catalog and therefore bring what sells. How hard is it for you to email them ahead of time and tell them to bring the product that you are interested in to the show? That's what I do, to avoid disappointment.

Better yet, come across the pond to one of the HMGS conventions…….I'd recommend Historicon. It's 4 days long and I'd be happy to hang around with you. You can play games from early morning till well past midnight. It won't be cheap, but you'll have a great vacation. After the convention, you can tour some of the local ACW battlefields…….if you can take the heat and humidity.

A fairly normal UK show would be from 1000 to 1700 with most gamers not attending for the full time………….
………Is there demand in the UK for US style Cons? Certainly not among the traders I was discussing this with at the weekend. It simply adds to their costs and they take very little more money.

This is something I don't get. So you pay to drive there, pay to park and pay to get in to what is becoming more of a 7 hour vender hall with a few large dioramas to look at? I'd understand why one would rather stay home and order off of the Internet.

Driving distances are much bigger here (worse for me as I come from Canada). So the gas, time and hotels expenses make up for your higher fuel prices. The point is to socialize with friends, play a few games, drink, eat and have a great time together. Shopping is a bonus, but not the purpose of the get together.

As another comparison I traded at a show in Spain not long ago. Probably similar size to a UK small to medium show.

It had the following:
Free entry for all.
Free wi-fi for all.
lots of space.
high quality games
extremely high standard painting comp.
the 2 day show ran from 10-3 then 3-5 was (spanish siesta style) lunch break where games and traders stopped, ate, chatted mingled etc, then 5-8 show continued.
No sign of traders packing up early to get out at 8, even on the sunday it just kind of carried on late!

This is as much to do with Spanish culture as anything but it was certainly enjoyable. :)

Last weekend I visited the Vapnartak show held at York racecourse in the main stand. Paring was free entrance only £4.00 GBP and they didn't charge for my wife as she isn't a gamer! Because it uses the racecourse catering food was good and wasn't expensive. I met half a dozen people I know including a couple I who were trading. I got to see castings I wouldn't normally look for on line and saved more in postage than the entrance fee cost me. All within a 40 minute drive from home.

Downsides it was crowded there were some smelly folk there (but not as many as in some previous years) and yes backpacks were in evidence. But all in all it was an enjoyable day out.

For me, as someone who is more into modelling and collecting than gaming, I tended to go to shop and to hopefully see inspirational games. In the pre-internet days they were pretty much the only way to see before you buy. I used to like Bring and Buys, but they are dying a death in the face of eBay and the like. I'm now in the situation where I am should be focussing on disposing rather than adding to my lead/plastic piles.
If asked, I would have said I preferred Demo games, because the modelling and painting would often be better than the participation games, simply because the games would reflect the preferences of the people running them. That differentiation is much less the case now, where the display standard tends to be high across the board.
Another difference now is the travelling. The smaller scale of the UK means that distances are relatively short compared with the States. The problem is that this density is reflected in the amount of traffic using what can be old road networks, especially in the bigger cities. I live in teh South East, and traffic is terrible.
On Saturdays I like to watch my son play football (soccer). I have given up on away games where the opponents are in London. Even though the location is less than 20 miles away, I would have to allow 90 minutes each way for the trip, and sometimes even that is optimistic. Much of it will be stationary looking at someone's tail lights. Even if it were a longer trip I would prefer it if I can keep moving.
The upshot is that I'll restrict my visits to fairly close shows, and my main incentive would be to see if there were any inspirational games, or a trader with something that I particularly wanted to see in the flesh. Don't mind whether they are participation or demo games, because I won't try and play. For that reason, a 2-3 day convention wouldn't hold any more appeal than a 1 day show, but I would still go to see the mega-games. It would be interesting to see whether that format would work over here.

I am UK based and the UK shows just don't do it for me. I am lucky to be able to afford to travel to the US to attend H Con and for me that is one of my gaming high lights of the year.

It is all a games show should be. Lots of fantastic looking games that you can play!! I cannot recommend it highly enough. I do realise it is not within reach of most UK gamers but for me it is well worth the journey.

There are some UK shows that I have enjoyed and they are the smaller ones. Abingdon is an excellent show with plenty of games to play. Richard demo'd Chain of Command and it was not too busy, always great value talking to the 2FL crew so hunt them out at smaller shows.

Warfare at Reading has always had enough games to join in, but parking can be problematic at times.

So if you want to play games at UK shows I would hit the smaller shows.

The Three big US Shows, Historicon, Cold Wars, and Fall-In have hundreds of dealers and about 10,000 ft plus of dealer space ALONE! No gaming in the dealer area, that's in the gaming area. The other HMGs shows around the country have large dealer areas as well. Little Wars, Hurricon etc. are the sam way and the big shows draw about 2,000 people for three to four days.
Most other shows try to have some dealer peresence. Even the smaller ones like New Jersey Con do.

That is held in the Expo center in Edison and there is free parking.

Attended many shows (about 600)in the UK, continent and US. It's great that folk put on games and organise shows for no financial reward. Of course there are things needing attention, but the variety means gamers can probably find a show they like and make it their regular one?? Good discussion.
Just off to get my annual bath.

martin

Reading the (very interesting) back-and-forth in this thread, and speaking as an outsider who generally likes Brits and North Americans the same, I think the British system sounds more attractive, overall. That's when taking into account the big picture with the much "denser" club scene (and pub scene) allowing for most of the gaming and socializing to take place, which in turn allows for the shows to find their natural equilibrium as just that, shows, not conventions (not that there shouldn't be socializing at shows, of course). The American practice (as it is made out in this thread) of treating conventions as blowout extravaganzas of gaming and socializing to make up for the "diffusion" of the wargaming community sounds somewhat more familiar to me as a Scandi (but our events are much, much more on a grass-roots level and don't even rate in a discussion comparing British shows and American conventions). My general impression is that, all things considered, there are more frustrations to being a miniature wargamer in North America.

But I don't know, maybe I'm romanticizing the UK. I do listen to a lot of BBC talk radio over the web so I try to remind myself of the difficulties I regularly hear about in regard to such things as traffic, pubs closing down at an alarming rate, event space being costly, and so on.

If going to Excel, do Google streetview just North of the centre for on-street parking if you are feeling brave. Just got to cross the DLR on foot at the stations.