"NEW to ACW" Topic

Difficult to tell, but I think this is a good example of Poe's Law.

He actually believes what he says, or he is a great method actor. I'm inclined to say he believes it. It's the same mentality I found in the more rural areas of Mississippi when visiting the family farm, in that some people there do not forget anything and can never move on. They're a tiny part of Southern society and are dwindling in numbers because in the later 20th and 21st Centuries the younger generations don't really care about ancestral honor and dishonor. Plus it is hard not to move around, visit, relocate, go to school out of state, find a job up north, or find a job down south, raise children in the new home, etc etc. With every generation people like Texas Jack are replaced with people who are interested in history but do not feel like they have an emotional need for defending the "honor" of people who died centuries ago. My ancestors fought on both sides during the Civil War. My ancestors scalped Native Americans and in turn were scalped by Native Americans. They were Patriots and Loyalists. And axe murderers and burglars and Polish immigrants (all at the same time for one guy). Which is neat to know but I live for today and the future, not for the past.

138th- "Gentlemen of the South" is correct, for the most part it is supporters of the North who are behaving badly here. Really, if you cannot discuss without insults how can anyone take you seriously?

Don't see any supporters of the North in the Dowg Houss because of this tread.

Once again, I did say "for the most part." And the reason some Yankee supporters are not in the DH is because I am not the type to push the complaint button.

And now I see the crowd have come out of the woodwork. Gentlemen (?), be as insulting as you like, it does not reflect upon me, nor others of the "dwindling" Southerners who have not betrayed their ancestors.

I still think most of you all are to close to be objective.

I know I am, I'm an out and out Yanky.

When all the card are dealt, the war is firstly,secondly and thirdly for the preservation of the Union.

This thread has been well and truly Hijacked.

I still recommend Shelby Foote and McPherson.

Yes we have hijacked it, and pretty badly. If this was a real hijacking me, Texas Jack and couple of others would probably be facing 25 years to life for aggravated assault, hijacking etc :P

I am ashamed and truly hope the creator of the thread is not turned off from trying wargaming ACW because of us. Truly ashamed.

Goodness KTravlos, I am glad I am not in your court!
But as you know, I consider your behavior in this thread to be without reproach.

But yes, we did hijack it. It was, aside from a few insults, a rip-roaring discussion, but unfortunately it didnīt help out poor Ned much.

My apologies Ned, but just think of the fun you will have now that you know just where each side is coming from in this war! And yes, I used the present simple for a reason.

It still seems to be going on at least on this forum. Must say its quite interesting the emotion it still invokes.

Letīs just say we are enthusiastic! I certainly hope you havenīt been put off though, and of course the chances of you meeting most of us on the other side of the table are rather small.

I'd heartily recommend Shelby Foote's books to give you a great basic grounding in the Civil War!

For atmosphere Ken Burns' series cannot, in my opinion, be beaten …it certainly inspired me to delve deeper into this fascinating conflict!

From this series I met for the first time Sam Watkins of Company 'Aytch' …this charming memoir, brought to life in Ken Burns' series remains a most treasured possession of mine!

I've not a beef in this fight, but it is clear to me that the war originated in the slavery and more to the point in the political struggle between free and slave states over the way the Western territories would be developed. Southern politicians feared that Lincoln would force down their throats the acceptance of the Western territories as free states, breaking in the process the political balance in the Congress and Senate in favour of the former and against the interests of slave states. That would have put an end to the political dominance of the South in US politics since the early 20s.

While individual soldiers didn't give much thought to slavery, they were aware that they were fighting for a system of economical explotation which benefited them, even if they didn't own slaves personally.It was precisely in the regions with an economic model based upon the explotation of small family farms, with none or small presence of slave workforce, where concentrated most of the Southern oposition to secession.

However, those who claim that the war wasn't about slavery have a point. Southern oligarchies managed to orchestrate a careful campaign of propaganda. They convinced many non-slave owners that the war was about to protecting their freedom, when they were just protecting their own political power in Washington -then in Richmond-. Slavery was used as the bone of content, as it helped to link economic with political interests. In the end, though, it was about power. It was about Southern oligarchs that wouldn't yield their control upon the country. Slavery was both a motive and an excuse. They calculated that Lincoln wouldn't dare to call their bluff, or if he did he would mess up and made the war a war to free the slaves. He was too cunning a politician to fall into the trap. He made the war a war for the Union -that is one of the reasons after his careful approach, some would say timid, to the slavery issue-.

What a train wreck this thread has become!!

No one here ever takes a perspective of history. You take your average gentry, monied and with land/business of the era and you will see a racist, sexist, somewhat devout, political absolutist. You argue here without seeing the era. My home town, Utica NY(upstate Mohawk Valley) LYNCHED A ABOLITIONIST!!! Nothing was cut and dried the way today's media tries to show all the time here. You are stereotyping the era with your argument! We don't see enough 'through Captain's eyes.' Contemporary-era politicos would find your statements specious, condescending and self-aggrandising.

Free Murphy.

Murphy was DHed for a personal attack, not for his comments on the ACW.

basileus66, I believe you did an outstanding job presenting why slavery was the root cause of the Civil War, however at the same time, that not all Southerners were fighting for slavery. Excellent job.

To Ned Ludd – Try "The Fremantle Diary" for a more measured assessment of the mores and motives of the Confederacy. Fremantle was a British staff officer sent by the British Army to observe and report on the war. He travelled extensively in the civilian South as well.

As far as gaining an understanding of why everyone chose to take up arms is concerned, I offer the following old adage: There is always a very simple answer to every complicated question ….. and it is usually wrong. What you are asking is a very complicated question.

B

Colonel Fremantle was not an official representative of the United Kingdom he was something of a tourist who was interested in the American Civil War. opinion of his diary is that it wasn't intended to be published so it's a bit more revealing of his personal thoughts.

He's buried about 500 yards from where I work.

Must say its quite interesting the emotion it still invokes.

Ned, have you ever been by the dawghouse after a particularly sprited Napoleonic "discussion"? (And by discussion, I mean argument.) :)

My comment will likely get lost in this morass, but I'll blather some anyway: I have no sources to recommend. I am shamefully ignorant of my own nation's history. I mean, I know the basics, but don't press me too hard on the specifics. I grew up in and around New Bedford, MA….which was a pretty big Underground Railroad stop, so there's no disputing that I have viewed the war through the perspective I was taught in school. In other words, the Northern perspective.

Not that I think it's as simple as that, mind you. I'm prepared to believe guys like Murphy even though his perspective differs from what I was taught, considering he probably forgot more about the ACW than I ever knew in my life.

That being said, I would have no problem playing either the Union or Confederacy if anyone was inclined to play an ACW game with me (I've never played ACW), and that's because I don't care enough about the politics to let it interfere with my game and with having fun.

The fact that you want to learn more about the war is admirable, but I guess you're learning now that it's a pretty controversial topic for some, even today. Just don't let it negatively affect your game.

Good luck!

Ned, have you ever been by the dawghouse after a particularly spirited Napoleonic "discussion"? (And by discussion, I mean argument.) :)

You know that the Napoleonic Boards have become really gentile over the last 18 months. The usual suspects have all abandoned TMP and it's now really civilised.

I miss the good old day of the Napoleonic Boards; Mad Hoffie, Kevin Kiley et al going at it hammer and tongs. That was when the Napoleonic Boards were discussed in hushed tones, and people were advised to stay away. In the good old days if TMP was a park, the Napoleonics section was the sand pit (or sand box for you Americans). That sand pit was full of landmines and the bushes around it contained the child rapists and the unwary were the golden-haired 7 year old in velvet sailor suits.

There you go again 138squadronRAF, fantasizing again.

(Hey, I just want to keep the show going. I wonder if the original poster has run for the hills or back to Dungeons and Dragoons yet?

For a while there, it started to look like a youtube comments section in here.

Surely it must be a testament to the passions that caused the war itself to erupt that even now 150 years later it still inspires such fierce debate?

Yah. I am trying to imagine feeling the same passion for the 1864 war between Denmark and Prussia and it just seems so weird to me.

American culture is endlessly fascinating.

Also, as far as why the war was fought, the southern states wrote declarations of secession where they said why they seceded. Go read them.