"Saxon vs Westphalia Infantry Uniforms (late)" Topic

Howdie.

OK, looking at a mass of painted infantry, mostly Minfigs or Napoleonettes or other early, small 15mm.

How do you tell late Saxons from Westphalians? I am reasonably sure that the Saxons did not color their turnbacks, not sure about that for Westphaians, but the original painter may have decided to not do this on the miniatures thus making the question moot.

Any suggestions? There are a number of these, so its not as easy as posting images to sort them out, there are too many. Collectively, they look the same to me :)

I am tempted to go by facing colors, but it looks to me as if there are cross overs on the facing colors.

Thanks for any help.

Chalfant

I think the Westphalians pretty much stuck to blue facings, so if there are other colors in there, they're Saxons. If they're all blue, Westphalians.

That's my guess, at least. Pix?

yep Westphalia's stuck to blue and everyone had epaulets..elites and center companies..elites in red or green and center companies in blue

Blue facings and epaulettes for all companies is what the intro books say about the Westphalians- but that wasn't the the case in reality.

All the infantry was supposed to be re-uniformed in that way in 1810-11- but only the 2nd Line Regt was issued with it by 1812- and some of the units partially rebuilt in 1813. Most units kept the earlier uniform throughout with either dark blue, light blue, yellow or black facings, and just shoulder straps for the centre company fusiliers. Maybe if Napoleon had won the 1813 campaign (and Westpahlia had survived as a state), the new pattern uniform would have been issued to all.

Re the main Saxon/Westphalian differences- Saxons had Regts with red and green facings- so that should be a giveaway. Saxon elite companies wore NO epaulettes. Also all Saxons including centre companies wore two cross belts and a short sword.

Westphalian centre companies should follow the French style and only have one cross belt. But I have one contemp illustration of a Westphalian fusilier with two cross belts in 1813- maybe a hurried re-issue from other nations stocks.

OK, I picked up on some Westphalians having other colors, though, I think some of these are indeed painted with blue (and makes pulling some of them out easy). The one or two crossbelts might be a big clue. Epaulets / no epaulets. That is enough to get me started, thanks guys.

I will have some more questions shortly….

Chalfant

The Saxons had the white metal water bottle attached to the back pack as well,the side arms were different

for more go to

napoleon-online.de and look at the series of contemporary prints

The only elites in a Saxon infantry regiment are the grenadiers, and they were converged into grenadier bns. If IR Prinze Anton, and IR Prinze Friedrich August were brigaded together the grenadiers of those regiments would be formed into a four coy. bn.

IIRC the Saxons had a small number (15?) of sharpshooters in each battalion, with white plumes or tufts.

The Saxons had the white metal water bottle attached to the back pack as well,the side arms were different

Yes, but the figures are Minifig and/or Napoleonettes, so they probably aren't actual "Saxon" or "Westphalian" figures so much as re-purposed French. Thus not likely to have such distinguishing details on them.

There were at least 10-12 schutzen per company but I believe with the changes in 1810, and it has been a long time since I looked at this stuff, the schutzen were removed to form the cadres of the light infantry battalions.

The Prinz Anton regiment of Saxony had dark blue facings.

It is quite easy to tell the 2nd gen Minifigs Westphalians from the Saxons since the former have got cords and plumes on their shakoes and the latter are all wearing shako covers. Also, as von Winterfeldt points out, the Saxons have got a water bottle on their backpack while the Westphalians do not.

Incidentally, it is very easy to confuse the Westphalian grenadiers and fusiliers since they are in similar poses and both have plumes. The easiest way to spot the difference is that the Grenadiers are in gaiters and the fusiliers are in trousers.

Hmmm. OK, I'll look for water bottles too.

Chalfant