"Dozen former French soldiers, including elite troops..." Topic

…, join ISIS – reports.

"A dozen former French soldiers, mostly from special forces and the Foreign Legion, have joined jihadists fighting in Syria and Iraq, a defense ministry source confirms, as the government readies a new multimillion anti-terror plan.

Reports of French ex-military turning to jihad first appeared on Radio France Internationale (RFI) and in L'Opinion daily on Wednesday.

An anonymous defense ministry source later confirmed the information to AFP.

"We estimate around a dozen former troops have joined these networks," the source said. "Our concern is not former soldiers… It's preventing the phenomenon of radicalization within our forces."…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

'Tis what happens when one doesn't understand the cultures that they are letting in through their borders.

A muslim's first loyalty is to his god and not some abstract nation state. The main purpose of existence is to serve god. French Fifth Republic doesn't stand a chance in terms of loyalty once a muslim fully embraces the Koran.

And thus should not be given the full rights to citizenship to any country which requires your loyalty.

"A muslim's first loyalty is to his god and not some abstract nation state."

You don't seriously suggest that it's any different for devout Christians, do you? I would hope not.

You don't seriously suggest that it's any different for devout Christians, do you? I would hope not.

Actually it is different. Western Christians have in last few hundred years generally shown more loyalty to country/nationality/ideology than religion – after all they've not had any qualms about fighting for their countries against other Christians.

Muslims on the other hand generally don't. Even in secular countries like Indonesia there's a concern that the rise of conservative Islam is reducing loyalty to Indonesia – people are becoming Muslim first and Indonesian second.

Tuscaloosa,

I'm not a Christian, but I don't see any serious Christian terrorism problems.

The Christians in the States haven't bombed an abortion clinic in ages, the LRA in African is more of a armed personality cult, the two groups in India are practically dormant.

There are not armies of devout Christians massacring religious minorities. All over the world, there are not daily terrorist attacks by violent extremist devout Christian groups.

I don't think Tuscaloosa was suggesting anything about Christian militancy, but he's right when he suggests my loyalty is to God first, country second. I render unto Caesar and whatnot, but if, for example, I had to choose between the two, there isn't a choice. As it is, I am generally not called to make those choices, but the potential moral conflict is there.

'Tis what happens when one doesn't understand the cultures that they are letting in through their borders.

A muslim's first loyalty is to his god and not some abstract nation state. The main purpose of existence is to serve god. French Fifth Republic doesn't stand a chance in terms of loyalty once a muslim fully embraces the Koran.

Dare I say that the French Republic has a far better understanding of muslim culture than you suggest? Or, point out that millions of French citizens who happen to be muslims have no loyalty problem whatsoever?

There are not armies of devout Christians massacring religious minorities. All over the world, there are not daily terrorist attacks by violent extremist devout Christian groups.

I suggest you look up the Lord's Resistance Army's record of atrocities, all in the name of the Ten Commandments…

Tango – you regard Russia Today as a trustworthy source?

A muslim's first loyalty is to his god and not some abstract nation state.

That'll be why a Muslim policeman died upholding his oath the France confronting the Islamists and why a Muslim was responsible for saving the lives of the customers of the Kosher supermarket…

Islamophobia is the same as anti-Semitism people.

Glad to see the ultra modern board is still living up to its reputation….

Glad to see the ultra modern board is still living up to its reputation….

By that you mean "Ultramodern" is code for "Blue Fez."

I don't see any serious Christian terrorism problems.

Forgotten the IRA already?

They can't be terrorists if Americans fund them – remember?

That'll be why a Muslim policeman died upholding his oath the France confronting the Islamists and why a Muslim was responsible for saving the lives of the customers of the Kosher supermarket…

One guy. The Islamic experience in France has not been positive even if it's not resulted in terrorism. Lack of integration coupled with large criminalisation, unemployment etc have created these problems.

The French government currently has several hundred areas that they have classified as areas of extreme sensitivity and that are basically no go zones for French government. Most of these areas are Muslim.

Here's the list of all these zones by the way: sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS

Islamophobia is the same as anti-Semitism people.

No it's not.

Jews don't commit acts of terror on a global scale, don't call for orthodox Jewish religion to be embraced by all, don't blackmail the community/government, don't protest and kill because of cartoons, don't murder movie makers or politicians that they don't like, don't gang rape women cause they're not Jewish (happened in Sydney).

Most Jews also are not anti-homophobic, anti-women, do not try to murder handicapped children for "blasphemy," kill their female family members for "honour," don't practice female genital mutilation, don't agree to slavery etc etc.

Essentially they're not trying to ram their intolerant, sexist, fundamentalist way of life down everyone's throats.

Orthodox Jews are a bit less tolerant (much like Christians) but they're not the majority or even a sizeable minority. In most places where Islam exists it is stuck in the 7th century.

Frankly I don't want to live in an Islamic society nor do I want my kid too or my grandkids.

I don't want my family to live in a society in fear of Islamic terrorists.

I want to live in Australia as it is, not some 7th century backwater where I get stoned for listening to metal or drinking a beer or my daughter gets stoned for wanting to be a human being.

And Islam has already been problematic here and has been a problem ever since they started coming in any sort of numbers in the 1990s.

They can't be terrorists if Americans fund them – remember?

or if they're fighting against apartheid or other causes that you agree with ;-)

"Western Christians have in last few hundred years generally shown more loyalty to country/nationality/ideology than religion"

I'm amazed you think that. I can easily think of half a dozen examples off the top of my head that directly contradict this statement.

Are there any readers of this post who consider themselves to be devout Christians, whose loyalty to the flag would take priority over loyalty to the cross, if there were an irreconcilable conflict between the two?

I believe dzfw very accurately summarised the devout Christian's position. And it isn't loyalty to nation over loyalty to God.

People keep throwing out all these ridiculous, straw-man, and red herring arguments, over and over.

In the last 10 – 20 years, which religion's murderous psychopaths have been responsible for killing thousands, if not tens of thousands of innocent people (on purpose), all around the globe, in the name of their god, or prophet (ooops, that last point probably gives the answer away)?

Based upon reports in the news, this religion's followers appear to be responsible for 90% – 99% of the terrorist acts around the globe.

There is only one correct answer.

No, it's not Christians, Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Presbyterians, Baptists….. I could go on.

Deadzone, you need to stop reading right-wing blogs and perhaps do a little Googling.

For a start two muslims – out of a grand total of two able to do anything, did the right thing and tried to save lives during the Charlie Hebdo shootings/

A 100% record, which doesn't square with your depicitons.

Secondly a 'Area of Sensitivity' does not equate to a no-go zone. it's a measure of social deprivation. I can also assure you, as an aside, that not only is Birmingham not a no-go zone zrea in the UK but it's Muslim population is around 20%, not 100% as some sources have indicated….

Most Jews also are not anti-homophobic, anti-women

Ditto for Muslims. I'll point out the attitudes towards women of a lot of Ultra-Orthodox Jews are exactly the same as those for extreme Muslims.

but they're not the majority or even a sizeable minority. In most places

So, exactly the same as for Muslims then.

I think, frankly, I've got your number, politically speaking….

Mako – again, no-one is saying some Muslims aren't causing a huge problem. But the fact also remains that 95% of those dying are also muslims, as are 95% of the people fighting these lunatics.

Odd how that fact never gets mentioned by certain elements of the US media which I'm apparently not allowed to name.

Perhaps I'm odd but I'm not going to my pants when I go into my local newsagents jsut ebcause the polite man behind the counter has a beard. Perhaps I've got more courage than I give myself credit for.

The French government currently has several hundred areas that they have classified as areas of extreme sensitivity and that are basically no go zones for French government. Most of these areas are Muslim.

Yeah, and Birmingham is a shariah state…

And thus should not be given the full rights to citizenship to any country which requires your loyalty.
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I appreciate that Deadzone and Zargon don't live in the UK but of course much the same in the past was said about Catholics and indeed enshrined in law. And more up to date a no. of Irish Catholics who served in the British Army subsequently worked for PIRA thus leading some Unionists to the position of 'never trust a Catholic' (I've heard it from at least one person who served in the NI Security Forces as well as as more general anti-Catholic sentiment from Scots in law enforcement).

As said the biggest number of people who've died fighting Islamic extremism are Muslims

We also apparently have religious police on the streets…

No, it's true! An expert says so!

Just for the record we DO have Sharia courts in this country.

They spend their time doing outrageous things like resolving civil disputes and working out what is and isn't halal.

Just like our Beth Din courts…

Which for some reason never get mentioned on the more hysterical, fact-free news outlets.

Actually it is different. Western Christians have in last few hundred years generally shown more loyalty to country/nationality/ideology than religion – after all they've not had any qualms about fighting for their countries against other Christians.

Muslims on the other hand generally don't. Even in secular countries like Indonesia there's a concern that the rise of conservative Islam is reducing loyalty to Indonesia – people are becoming Muslim first and Indonesian second.
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Firstly as a Christian there would come a point where it would not be my country right or wrong (and I work for the govt). Many Christians have had qualms about war, even if in the end they have taken part, rather than just glibly not even thinking about it – the UK's most senior soldier until recently was an active evangelical Christian.
There have of course been plenty of inter Muslim wars incl the likes of Iran-Iraq, the conflict in Afghanistan pre 2001 etc

Also whilst I am emotionally pro-Israel having worked on a kibbutz there, one would have to say that in terms of recent years, the IDF has not done itself any favours in terms of the approach taken re Gaza etc

"People keep throwing out all these ridiculous, straw-man, and red herring arguments, over and over."

Yes. The primary one being the ridiculous argument that Muslims are unique in honoring religion before nation.

Deadone, Zargon, have you given up that line of reasoning? I notice neither of you have further defended your statement.

One guy.
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i'd think there'd be quite a no. of Muslim soldiers and poicemen. As I'd understand Zargons position unless they could prove themselves loyal they shouldn't be allowed to serve as they could be a potential 5th column (the approach that the govt in Zimbabwe seemed to take over time with the white members of the SF)

'Just for the record we DO have Sharia courts in this country.'

To clarify that, the Arbitration Act 1996 allows citizens to resolve disputes by almost any mutually-agreed procedure they see fit. It replaced a very similar piece of legislation.

A 'mutually-agreed procedure' would include 3-legged races, or getting a Dungeon-master to decide using AD&AD as a guide, so long as all parties agreed to that in advance.

As such, they are not ‘Courts', but arbitration boards, operating under British Law. Sharia law as such has no standing and no special place in British law.

Folks who attack the existence of these 'courts' rarely realise they are actually attacking a principle of British law – namely that individuals are free to sort out their own disputes by any peaceful method they like.

'The Islamic experience in France has not been positive even if it's not resulted in terrorism. Lack of integration coupled with large criminalisation, unemployment etc have created these problems.'

It was not long ago that people were saying exactly that about the Italian community in the US (as one example). A few bad apples …

It was not long ago that people were saying exactly that about the Italian community in the US (as one example). A few bad apples …

Or the Irish community in the US…

So, exactly the same as for Muslims then.

I think, frankly, I've got your number, politically speaking….

In case you haven't noticed Stu but most Muslims live in fuedal fundamentalist third world countries. They are generally not living middle class secular lives unlike most Christians or Jews.

for extreme Muslims.

And that's messed up. However right now Orthodox Judaism is not the majority (though it's growing).

In Islam the Orthodox is the majority be it Egypt, Pakistan, Nigeria, Mauritania, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc etc and increasingly in Malaysia and Indonesia.

Firstly as a Christian there would come a point where it would not be my country right or wrong (and I work for the govt). Many Christians have had qualms about war, even if in the end they have taken part, rather than just glibly not even thinking about it – the UK's most senior soldier until recently was an active evangelical Christian.
There have of course been plenty of inter Muslim wars incl the likes of Iran-Iraq, the conflict in Afghanistan pre 2001 etc

Islam unlike Christianity has clauses that advocate violence at all levels, be it belting up ones wife or waging war in the defence of Islam.

And whereas Jesus was a carpenter that turned Gandhi like, Mohammad became a warlord and by our own ideals, an intolerant pedophile whose teachings basically promote an extreme authoritarian regime on par and in some cases worse than David Koresh or Jim Jones.

Assuming Islam is a religion of peace is a fallacy not supported by its origins, its teachings or hundreds of years of Islamic interpretation (haddiths).

The teachings of the Wahhabis, Salafists and other fundamentalist Islam is actually quite close to what Mohammad himself preached and practiced.

I'm an atheist by the way.

Folks who attack the existence of these 'courts' rarely realise they are actually attacking a principle of British law – namely that individuals are free to sort out their own disputes by any peaceful method they like.

In Australia, moderate Muslims (Australian Federation of Islamic Councils) has been calling on sharia law to replace Australian law for muslims in relation to domestic and family issues.

They're also pushing for government funding for faith schools and halal shops in areas where muslims don't currently live.

Same council has also proven to be beyond corrupt to with potential embezzelement, unexplained transfer of funds (including Commonwealth funding etc).

It was not long ago that people were saying exactly that about the Italian community in the US (as one example). A few bad apples …

Italians didn't go around wanting to change USA into Italy.

I wonder if Australian aborigines or native North Americans had the same discussions when the first Europeans came?

"These white fellas/pale faces are ok. They're just like us. And 95% of them aren't violent."

['Folks who attack the existence of these 'courts' rarely realise they are actually attacking a principle of British law – namely that individuals are free to sort out their own disputes by any peaceful method they like.']

[In Australia, moderate Muslims (Australian Federation of Islamic Councils) has been calling on sharia law to replace Australian law for muslims in relation to domestic and family issues.]

Entirely different issue. Replace English/Australian Law? The answer is no.

Arbitration courts that comply with British Law? Not an issue.

["These white fellas/pale faces are ok. They're just like us. And 95% of them aren't violent."]

I entirely agree and would oppose any immigration policy that allowed existing inhabitants to become a minority to any group with substantially different values. Immigration policy should aim to strengthen a country, and should not apologize for it.

but most Muslims live in fuedal fundamentalist third world countries.

Simply untrue.

13% of Muslims live in Indonesia, which is not a fundie hell-hole.

11% in India – ditto.

So that's a quarter of all muslims without even bothering to discuss places like Malaysia and turkey.

Islam unlike Christianity has clauses that advocate violence at all levels

Not read the Old Testament lately then.

moderate Muslims (Australian Federation of Islamic Councils) has been calling on sharia law to replace Australian law for muslims in relation to domestic and family issues.

It's a fundamental of British (and I guess Australian law that citizens can resolve civil cases whoever they wish.

Hence we have Beth din courts in the UK and indeed Australia. I note they don't bother you.

Italians didn't go around wanting to change USA into Italy.

I suggest you watch the Godfather.

"A dozen former French soldiers, mostly from special forces and the Foreign Legion, have joined jihadists fighting in Syria and Iraq,

Would it really matter ? If true, they are well trained, and would be moslem or sympathetic to islam. But they are not the majority of Deash fighters …

They can't be terrorists if Americans fund them – remember?

That should read "some" Americans … most did not support the IRA and along with that many thought the IRA was a retirement fund. You are giving many Americans too much credit knowing about such geo-political subjects.

or if they're fighting against apartheid or other causes that you agree with

In reality, not many Americans supported apartheid, save for a tiny lunatic fringe, like the KKK, White Supremacists, etc. … Most in the US had no idea …

Italians didn't go around wanting to change USA into Italy.
I suggest you watch the Godfather.

Being an Italian American whose Grandparents came over in the very late 1900s, may I say, "I don't recall that."

Let's not read too much into this. A dozen or so ex-French soldiers in Daesh isn't even a drop in the bucket. It's only worth mentioning by the IS propaganda machine to rile people up like this, and it evidently worked.

Has it not occurred to any of you that some of these former Legionnaires aren't even fighting for IS out of religious belief? It may simply be that they're atheists, seek adventure and IS offered them decent pay.

Next topic.

13% of Muslims live in Indonesia, which is not a fundie hell-hole.

11% in India – ditto.

So that's a quarter of all muslims without even bothering to discuss places like Malaysia and turkey.

If you bothered to read stuff coming out of these countries, conservative Islam is on the rise in Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey (ever hear of a fellow called Erdogan).

And come with that is fundamentalism – minorities don't have same rights as Muslim Malays in Malaysia. In Indonesia there's been a rise in Islamist violence as well as a festering Islamic rebellion in Aceh since the 1970s and slaughter between Muslims and non-Muslim in Mindanao and elsewhere (though some of these are also driven by issues such as government sponsored immigration of Javanese – a form of colonialism).

Turkey is giving up on secularism. It has supported fundamentalist jihadis in Syria, has sold out Israeli agents to Iran, has supported Hamas, has purged military of secularists and is starting to crack down on western liberalism be it service of alcohol on airliners to promotion of Islamic values.

And the Indians have problems with their Muslims though that stems from the age of partition and there's violence on the Hindu side as well (e.g. massacres in Gujarat in 2002 – Muslims burned a train full of Hindu pilgrims which in turn led to 3 months of Hindus and Muslims massacring each other). Or Muslim rioting in 1992 following the destruction of a mosque, Kashmir or the Mumbai bombings etc etc.

India also has problems with other fundamentalists (SIkh and Hindu) as well as Marxists etc. Of course not many Westerners ever bother to read about what's happening in these countries.

And it all started decades and in some cases centuries before 9-11 except most Westerners were too ignorant to notice it. Most Westerners assume Islam is the same as Christianity when in fact it is far more expansive in terms of scope.

By the way I'm not going to right wing sites. I'm getting it from places such as Strategic Studies Institute.
E.g.

strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/Articles/02autumn/kumar.pdf

Oh sorry, I gave you enough respect for you to know the difference between a conservative Muslim and an Isalmist fanatic.

if you think Erdogan is anything like Daesh then frankly I'm speechless.

Given Erdogan supported IS and fundamentalists, I'm not so sure.

His latest comments regarding women are straight out of the IS rule book.

Also conservative Islam is fanatical by default.

Or is beating up women, marrying girls young as 9, killing women for dishonour, persecuting and even killing homosexuals and atheists, preventing freedom of religion, persecuting non-Muslims what passes as moderate religion these days.

Got a point Deadone … let's hope that's a minority and all being equal, it probably is … But as always, the vocal[murderous, barbaric] fringe groups gets the press, etc. … That being said, I have always believed that the un-radicalized, non-islamists, non-jihadis, anti-terrorists followers of Islam/the Koran. Could do more to stop the islamo-lunatic fringe … I could be wrong. There is always the fear of many moslems worldwide that are "in the closet" about and support the fringe to one point or another …

Also conservative Islam is fanatical by default.

Outstanding ignorance!

I think you'll find a lot of the ANA soldiers fighting the Taliban would be termed 'conservative Muslims' yet oddly they're not engaging in suicide bombings or bringing down airliner.

Ditto the Jordanians who have been bombing ISIS.

Try reading about the Arab world. Watch Al Jazeera.

Don't get all your media from a certain tycoons' outlets.

I have always believed that the un-radicalized, non-islamists, non-jihadis, anti-terrorists followers of Islam/the Koran. Could do more to stop the islamo-lunatic fringe … I could be wrong. There is always the fear of many moslems worldwide that are "in the closet" about and support the fringe to one point or another …
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Again similar beliefs were held by many Brits about the Irish re the IRA – without going as far as the NI Loyalist variant on the old Wild West view of 'Injuns'

I think you'll find a lot of the ANA soldiers fighting the Taliban would be termed 'conservative Muslims' yet oddly they're not engaging in suicide bombings or bringing down airliner.

Ditto the Jordanians who have been bombing ISIS.

Some questions:

1. How are they treating their women folk
2. How do they treat homosexuals
3. How do they treat atheists
4. How do they treat people wanting to convert from Islam.

The answer is "probably badly if it's in accordance with Islam" – even moderate Jordan couldn't pass legislation that stated wife killers weren't automatically exempt from investigation (let alone prosecute them for murder), lest it peeved of the huge chunks of conservative population.

Outstanding ignorance!

No the ignorance is all yours. You confuse terrorism as Islamic.

As I keep saying the main issue is cultural. Muslims follow a vastly different ruleset to anyone else. It's a violent, oppressive and intolerant ruleset.

The terrorism/insurgency is just the most extreme point of an already extreme religion.

Again similar beliefs were held by many Brits about the Irish re the IRA – without going as far as the NI Loyalist variant on the old Wild West view of 'Injuns'

I didn't say it was right, but it is something many may be considering …

In the last 10 – 20 years, which religion's murderous psychopaths have been responsible for killing thousands, if not tens of thousands of innocent people (on purpose), all around the globe, in the name of their god, or prophet (ooops, that last point probably gives the answer away)?

If I were anyone from outside Nato reading that question, I might be tempted to answer "Is it the US military-industrial complex?"

And suggest that you don't spell profit like that.

If I were anyone from outside Nato reading that question, I might be tempted to answer "Is it the US military-industrial complex?"

And suggest that you don't spell profit like that.

Touchι. But if the US isn't the world's biggest arms exporter China and Russia will be.

The level of flat out racism and xenophobia on this particular part of TMP is stunning…

@28mm Fanatik,

Given my years at BAe Military Aircraft I probably shouldn't be casting the first – or indeed, any – stone; I was just feeling a little mischievous.

In terms of exporting death, the AK-47 takes a lot of beating. And of course, with sales come political and military influence – better us than them.