Help support TMP


"BOKI 1:100 pre-1798 Austrian Cavalry." Topic


233 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Product Reviews Message Board

Back to the Sculpting Message Board

Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board



10,046 hits since 18 Jan 2015
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 

Sho Boki18 Jan 2015 8:07 p.m. PST

Start of sculpting..


Chevaulegers, Dragoons and Cuirassieurs.

von Winterfeldt18 Jan 2015 10:57 p.m. PST

looks excellent so far, impressive saddle cloth

Sho Boki19 Jan 2015 2:32 p.m. PST

von Winterfeldt (and others too), what you can say about portmanteau of this troops?
Rounded or retangular? Cloth or fur?
Pictures shows all variants.

Sho Boki19 Jan 2015 4:18 p.m. PST

von Winterfeldt19 Jan 2015 11:07 p.m. PST

difficult question

I would opt for round valisse

about fur or cloth – I will have to check in Karger

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 2:57 a.m. PST

My findings – checking Karger

Calfskin valise (valise is hopefully the correct english term for portmanteau / Mantelsack)

It was introduced in 1767 – but already again replaced 1779 onwards with that one of red cloth again.

So – there could be some left overs in 1792 with being of calfskin – I would opt for red cloth however.

As for the shape

round

Some further notes of interest.

The Kasket of the Chevauleger was higher than those of the infantry, the front was about 22.5 cm high, the head piece was 13.5 cm, the brass shield at the front 13.2 cm high and 12 cm wide.
It had a plume of 24 cm height and at the right side a "Anhängeschnur" fixation cord of 46 cm length with two tassels (a doubled running cord with two tassels) – Mollo in his black and white prints is not showing those however.

From 1773 onwards the kasket was issued with a visor of leather, fixed by hooks and eyes, the kasket originally made form felt – was made from leather from 1778 onwards.

In contrast to the infantry where the visor was placed at the rear of the kasket and when in used therefore the kasket had to be place back to the front (again a worthwhile project) – those of the Chevaulegers were seemingly fixed to the front, see Mollo.

To be taken into account also – officers did wear hats – instead of the Kaskett.

Additions and corrections for further discussions are welcome.

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 4:34 a.m. PST

actually I found a lot of interesting details inthe 1767 regualtions about the kasket, coat, boots, etc, I will make photos and send to you in due course.

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 6:05 a.m. PST

that is our guidline – again thanks to the generous ASK Brown collection, more details will go to Sho from the plates of the 1767 regulations.

By the way in the 1767 regulations cuirassiers and dragoons should have the calfskin square valise but as for Chevauleger again already replaced from 1779 as well

picture

Sho Boki20 Jan 2015 6:34 a.m. PST

You already sended to me those black/white pictures.
But have you picture about officer with horse?
I have one, but for conformity it is better to see more.

Haythornthwaite wrote, that Kasket are "with a 23cm false front and a 16.5cm rear, the front edged with yellow braid".
You say that "the front was about 22.5cm high, the head piece was 13.5cm".
In 1:100 there are no difference of course, but difference in rear height is interesting anyway.

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 6:41 a.m. PST

I check with Karger again, but Karger, is also not without any mistakes, but without it – there would be hardly anything.

Don't forget, there are the 1767 regulations, you will see when I am sending the photos, which are superb, but things changed – as written above the kaskett was changed from felt to leather, the shield, originally of Maria Theresia must have changed as well, illustrations to find about such details, difficult, if anybody has it – please submit.

The same about the yellow braid, in my view true for 1767 but no for 1792 – Seele did some nice Chevauleger, I will send this plate as well to you.

I don't have any picture about a CL officer, could you send it to me – especially if it is contemporary.

I will check the text of von Ottenfeld and Teuber, it might be usufull as well on this topic.

Sho Boki20 Jan 2015 7:04 a.m. PST

I am interested about officers horse furniture at first. The only picture I have, show cuirassier officer from mid century, Osprey MAA 271 page 11. There are old shabrague of course, but if I remove overcoat in front of trooper I sculpted – it will be correct officers horse furniture?

Eclipsing Binaries20 Jan 2015 9:01 a.m. PST

Not sure how much help this image is, or if you've already seen it….

Can you do a figure giving the "thumbs up" like this?

Colin

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 9:22 a.m. PST

Do you have the Ottenfeld and Teuber book?

How good is your information about sculpting the musqueton or carabine?

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 9:44 a.m. PST

By the way, remember that also the CL did not carry the round wooden Tschutera before it was re introduced in 1798 but the tin water bootle, as information sent for line infantry.

for cavalry the side pointing to the body of it was covered in unbleached linen to prevent the rust rubbing off agains the coat I assume.

Feldflasche 1765 – 1798

Quelle : Karger, S. 72 / 73

Feldflaschen für die Infanterie aus verzinnten Blech, waren mit ledernen Anhangriemen versehen und mussten zwei österreichische Maß (0 2,8 L) fassen.
Gesamthöhe 22, 5 cm, ohne Hals 17, 0 cm, Dicke 9,2 cm, Breite 18,5 cm, die Form in Querschnitt oval.

Feldflaschen für die Kavallerie, früher aus Holz, mit einem kleinen Reifen umgeben, glich nach neuerer Art (1765) in Form und Größe jene für Infanterie. Der Trageriemen war bei beiden gleich. Der inwendige Teil, welcher an den Leib zu liegen kam, fasste ungebleichte Leinwand, der Stoppel weisses Sämischeleder ein.
1798 wurde wieder die Feldflasche aus Holz (Tschutera) eingeführt.

Karger, Johann : Die Entwicklung der Adjustierung, Rüstung und Bewaffnung der österreichisch – ungarische Armee 1700 – 1809, LTR Verlag, Buchholz i.d.N. 1998

Sho Boki20 Jan 2015 9:49 a.m. PST

"Thumbs up" are more suitable for personalities.
Line of troopers, all with "thumbs up", looks not good.

Carabine.
Haythornthwaite: "The carbine was 123cm long and weighted 3.4kg."
There are couple of Ottenfeld illustrations about carabine added.

And I found second image of officer on horse too. I was right about harness.

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 10:40 a.m. PST

Still I will check, I have photos from an original carabine, my view is, the better the sculptor understands detail, the better he can sculpt

Sho Boki20 Jan 2015 11:09 a.m. PST

Lugs "Handfeuerwaffen" have photo of Österreichischer Karabiner M1770.

Looks the same..

Actually your b/w pictures about CL are very detailed and accurate. I can't sculpt more details anyway.

von Winterfeldt20 Jan 2015 1:15 p.m. PST

good sculpting is more or less abstraction of anatomy and equipment as well as detail to the desired scale effect, some has to be overdone, the more you know the better you can abstract – or impressionate ;-)
Good miniatures are therefore pieces of art.

von Winterfeldt21 Jan 2015 2:48 a.m. PST

some notes I found in Karger – maybe helpfull.

Source : Karger

Queue : 15 Zoll ( 1 Zoll = 2.633 cm) about 39.5 cm length

Sabre waist belt : 5.3 cm wide with a brass buckle of 6 cm height and 9.2 width

Carbine belt : 8 cm wide – 174 cm length – for chevaulegers and hussars only 163.5 cm length

Carbine shoe ( where the muzzle of the carbine was placed into when not carried on the hook of the carbine belt) – identical for all cavalry, 13.cm deep, diameter of 6.5 cm

Cartridge pouch belt : 142.5 cm long, 5.2 cm wide, cartridge pouch contains 30 cartridges (seemingly for all cavalry) on top of it in a tube a ramrod of 31.5 cm length fixed on a strap of 2 cm width and 79 cm long

Pistol holsters 45 cm length / height

Belt for carrying the cavalry standard: 13.2 cm width, 174 cm length

About the carbine, as for cuirassiers, but hussars and chevaulegers – a bit shorter.

As you know there were some original CL regiments and then later in the 1770's dragoon regiments were converted.

Could well be that those still had their origial dragoon carbines.

Sho Boki22 Jan 2015 3:40 a.m. PST

I have doubt about Cartridge pouch belt wide.
5.2cm is too small. Other sources says 9cm. And only 18 cartridges contra 30 in pouch.

von Winterfeldt22 Jan 2015 5:21 a.m. PST

look at the plates about the 1767 regulation about cartridge box, see also at the dimensions beneath, in Austrian inch, one Austrian inch is about 2.633 cm, according to the plate the belt is about 2 Zoll wide, which is about 5.2 cm – and clearly the cartridge box contains 30 cartridges – which is confirmed by the text of the regulations that it should contain 30 shoots.

What other sources say 9cm width (which would be more for infantry and even wider than the carabine belt)

also check width of carabine belt in contrast to cartridge pouch belt, you will see on the scale that clearly the carabie belt is wider – at least 3 Zoll

I would stick the the 1767 plates – what better sources do we have???

von Winterfeldt22 Jan 2015 5:28 a.m. PST

also check other illustration, the top visible belt is the carabine belt, underneath is the cartridge pouch belt.

Actually Mollo shows a nice rear view of a CL which clearly depcits the narrower cartridge box belt to wider carbine belt, I will re – sent as well as Schmutzler

Sho Boki22 Jan 2015 5:36 a.m. PST

Yes, your plate show this.
Haythornthwaite may be completely wrong about this.
And cartridge pouch belt are hidden under carabine belt on pictures.. so it cannot be wider.. and one picture of dragoons clearly show, that it is thinner.

Valuable correction.

P.S. You already wrote the same. :)

von Winterfeldt25 Jan 2015 1:59 a.m. PST

just for interest

Apparently no officers sash was worn by the Austrian officers – in the whole Revolutionary Wars

Sho Boki25 Jan 2015 2:33 a.m. PST

I am more worried about "German cavalry boots" from your "Gollum Book" now. Ottenfeld and later illustrations shows only the type what I sculpted. Old manuscripts in other hands shows mainly these "rounded" boots from regulations.

von Winterfeldt25 Jan 2015 3:44 a.m. PST

Ottenfeld did quite a few mistakes – nice artist but not always flawles in research.

On the other hand the plates I did sent are of the regulations of 1767, some items must also have developed and change in style, Kaskett for Chevaulegers are an example, later of leather and with visor in contrast to 1767 and also the cavalry hat – shape must have changed a bit.

However, boots, etc., were regarded as long lasting items,how much they changed in style over the years, I don't know.

Don't go according to Ottenfeld but use the other nice contemporary prtins such as Schmutzler or indeed Mollo.

As always – you can sent your sculpting attempts and then we could discuss again

von Winterfeldt25 Jan 2015 7:17 a.m. PST

Here an immage of this ominous boot


the problem is that our immages how we think they did look like are shaped by modern artists as on Osprey or Ottenfeld – instead of contemporary pictures

picture

Sho Boki27 Jan 2015 8:35 p.m. PST

The next question, von Winterfeldt.
The "Säbelkoppel Kavallerie".
I understand right, that these are for NCO and officers?
Troopers sabres hanged on two belts.

von Winterfeldt27 Jan 2015 11:16 p.m. PST

good question, I have to look into my references again, originally I did think it was as for the plate, but contemporary illustrations show it as you suggested

von Winterfeldt27 Jan 2015 11:52 p.m. PST

Sho

you are right in your assesment, I missed the plate for troopers, it is as on the contemporary prints of Mollo and others, I will make a photo of the 1767 regulation plate about the hanger for troopers.

Sho Boki03 Feb 2015 2:53 a.m. PST

Now.. should I correct these boots or not?
They definitely looking better than regulation ones. But if all heavy cavalry, including cuirassieurs, weared regulation boots through period.. then I resculpt.

von Winterfeldt03 Feb 2015 3:29 a.m. PST

It would be interesting to see the difference on a miniature.

For the impression, as they look on your sculpting, they look ok for me.

So far the Chevauleger is developping very nicely

Sho Boki03 Feb 2015 3:44 a.m. PST

It is almost ready for halfway moulding. Only left hand finishing, cuff buttons and gaps filling must be done.
Then it will be the base for all cavalry – chevauleggers, dragoons and cuirassieurs.

Eclipsing Binaries03 Feb 2015 8:29 a.m. PST

looks great.

Sho Boki05 Feb 2015 8:16 a.m. PST

von Winterfeldt05 Feb 2015 1:43 p.m. PST

great progress, I can't see the collar well, in case it is there, look at the plates for the collar construction

Sho Boki05 Feb 2015 8:21 p.m. PST

There are only the preliminary edge for fixing the head height now.
Different collars for Chevauleggers and others, with different musket positions and added cuirasses I sculpt after halfway moulding and casting.

Eclipsing Binaries06 Feb 2015 7:55 a.m. PST

Sho, do you cast the sword roughly, as in your figure above, then use the metal half-way figure to make a sharper, narrower and more regular shaped sword?

von Winterfeldt06 Feb 2015 9:54 a.m. PST

it shouldn't be that narrower in my view, it looks good, Sho will certainly make a smoother sword – due to his attention to detail and sculpting skill, the Pallasch wasn't that narrow, Sho is giving a good impression.
He is alreay indicating well the assymetrical point of the Pallasch, very keen eye for the typical features, I can only congratulate

Sho Boki07 Feb 2015 5:23 a.m. PST

My sculpting material are soft and sticky, after hardening may be cut but not file and polish. Here are sword after cutting.

Sho Boki07 Feb 2015 5:26 a.m. PST

Big left hand on photo are already corrected.

Sho Boki07 Feb 2015 5:26 a.m. PST

Forum bugs works again..

Sho Boki08 Feb 2015 2:16 a.m. PST

May be the shoulders are a bit narrow?

von Winterfeldt08 Feb 2015 2:35 a.m. PST

no they look ok to me, remeber narrow shoulder look was fashionalbe then , in contrast to today – excellent progress, well done

Sho Boki09 Feb 2015 6:01 a.m. PST

How about moustaches?
Some pictures shows them, some not.
What regulations says?

Eclipsing Binaries09 Feb 2015 8:14 a.m. PST

I would go with moustaches. I'm not sure if its correct or not, but it looks right for the period.

von Winterfeldt09 Feb 2015 1:43 p.m. PST

I have to check on this.

von Winterfeldt09 Feb 2015 11:13 p.m. PST

at the first survy, Schmutzler, Reilly, Mollo, they all show them with mousetaches.
What of your sources didn't?
I just have to look through Krager, to see if he menitons anything in his work about it

Sho Boki10 Feb 2015 12:05 a.m. PST

For cuirassieurs moustaches were compulsorly.
But Haythorntwaite show dragoons and chevauleggers without moustaches.

von Winterfeldt10 Feb 2015 3:20 a.m. PST

I couldn't find anything so far in the text sources, however the contemporary plates show mousetaches for CL, the modern plates by Fosten in Haythornthwaite's book don't – I would therefore opt for the contemporary sources and sculpt them with mousetaches, in line with Schmutzler, Reilly and Mollo.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5